Paleo - gaining weight!

[misscph1973]

I've been Paleo for nearly 2 years now and I have experienced a lot of benefits healthwise.

But in the last 6-8 months I have gained weight! I was always slim before Paleo. I am 41 and I have gained about 3 kg. I am trying to shift it with IF and low carb (3 months now), but it's not budging. I do have some sweet Paleo friendly treats, but not often, and have only a bit of fruit and rearely nuts/seeds. I have dairy occassionally, but I don't seem to have a problem with it. I exercise, I lift weights, although in the last few weeks I haven't done much I have been very busy with work.

To be honest I am fed up googling my problem only to find results that suggest I don't eat enough or that it's hormones or stress. While I am sure these things do play a role, I don't think they apply to me. My hormones are doing quite well because of Paleo, I hardly have any PMS or bad skin anymore, and stress, well, of course I can get stressed, but I have 2 kids a a full time job, so I really don't think it's anything out of the ordinary. And I eat plenty, I have a good appetite and I get plenty of good fats.

I have previously participated in some excellent Paleo thread here on Mumsnet, so I thought I'd post here. Any suggestions?

Jessica/Jane meant that your statement that people that eat like you are happier than the chocolate wine brigade is too much of a sweeping generalisation.

I do not see any point in our arguing over whether on average those who are on sugar are happier than those who are not but the research does prove I am right - that on the whole those who eat well are happy and less prone to depression(never mind the ailments that make people unhappy like obesity and diabetes). Sugar affects the mind. In fact I am more interested in the role of good on mental health than physical but luckily they are linked. None of this is very surprising. If you eat like man was adapted to eat for about a million years and move and be outside as he/she was then you tend to be happy.If you don't you are less likely to be so. As it is so life enhancing to feel like this those of us who know this to be so tend to want to tell others too but I have no mission to convert the nation. Eat what you like but don't think it has no impact on your mood and health. It does.

Hi Raw, thanks for tips re myfitness pal, just changed the settings. I will try to get started on logging again. I find it quite hard to log as I cook food from scratch, and there is just so much maths involved in working it out ;)

JaneParker, I agree with you about sugar, I know you mean well. I am absolutely shocked looking at what people put in their supermarket trolleys and what kids have in their lunchboxes. Did you hear about this documentary: www.theguardian.com/film/2014/may/10/sugar-is-the-enemy-film-challenges-obesity-myths-fed-up

BindiBach, I also completely understand where you are coming from ;) I enjoy dark chocolate and red wine myself and too much abstaining can make me unhappy.

Today I am attempting a 24 hour fast as a reset (I am starving already! Haven't done a 24 hour fast for over a year!) and I am hoping to get better control of my portion sizes going forward.

To wade in - Wellies on. Too much sugar and too much wine will make you unhealthy and miserable. But too much abstaining will tend to make many of us miserable too. Too much preaching goes on in the Paleo movement, it can be so stifling at times.

MissCPH, I cook from scratch also (I really have to as even trace amounts of wheat and maize/corn make me ill.

Once you have logged a recipe, it's easy enough to count a portion but a bit of a faff to do the first time I agree. ATM I'm doing a lot of very simple basic recipes as part of my "getting back to basic paleo/low carb drive" so things like a portion of meat and a portion of 2 low carb veg stir fried with butter/coconut oil and herbs... Quite quick to log/scan as even all the loose veg seem to have a barcode sticker or tag attached these days...

Chocolate... One of life's great pleasures IMO! But it depends what you are eating, and how much.

Cadbury, galaxy etc... It's utter crap, nothing but a sugar hit (chocolate flavoured sugar really).

85% chocolate... It's a different thing entirely. Full of healthy stuff, virtually medicinal! This is a cocoa and flavour hit, full of feel good factors too. In moderation of course, but it's a lot harder to overeat 85% or above, as it's not going to wildly swing your blood sugar.

I have a small bar/portion most evenings (20g), about 5g carb (depending on brand). Yum.

I love the over 85 percent chocolate. One piece melted slowly on my tongue totally mindfully is bliss.

Thanks, Raw. I don't think the bar code scanning will work for me, as I don't buy much meat and veg from supermarkets, I get it delivered from independent suppliers (smug smiley). Do you weight your food?

Blackjack, well said!

I must admit I don't really enjoy 85% chocolate, I like it around 73%. I never liked Cadbury's etc. but then I am foreign ;)

ATM I am either weighing or scanning everything (but usually don't). I live in a rural area and the big supermarket is where I get most stuff (strangely, cities seem to be the best places for "farmers markets!"), but we do have a very good butchers (a group of local farms supply it) and a very good cheese shop (I eat some, not a lot, and stick to raw).

It took me a bit of time to work up to 85% (or higher), I started on the 70% which tastes way too sweet now!

The best I've found so far (it tastes amazing and like a very, very expensive chocolate, and not bitter)is tesco Finest Dominican Republic 85% single origin (it has a green and black swirly pattern on the pack). It is fabulous and as I say not bitter like some very dark choc. Well worth trying and much better than any of the other tesco finest choc varieties IMO.

misscph I think when Bindi asked if you might be eating too much she meant in the sense of eating beyond the point that your actual hunger demands, rather than basing it on calories...doesn't calorie counting run counter to the principles of Paleo anyway ...

Jane absolutely food and exercise affect your mental state and vice versa, I wouldn't disagree with that at all - as I said, I'm an Eating Psychology Coach! What is a concern is when your weight and appearance becomes your prime focus in life, where you are constantly battling it to the detriment of other people and enjoyment - that is not a good place to be mental health wise. Sugar is not good, no, but it does exist in nature, we can cope with it in the state it is meant to be ie in a whole piece of fruit. As for wine....well there was a time it was used as medicine and there are plenty of studies to show that it can bring health benefits. Its the dose that makes the poison and different people tolerate different doses. Also, food, in all its forms (even junk food) can and should be a pleasure - occasionally that meal that is terrible on paper - ie nutritionally, but takes you back to being a child, feeling warm and comforted and soothed, really can be good for you. We need to feed body and soul sometimes.

Anyhow, if you or anyone else are interested, there's a thread in Food , Eating Better - where we are all aiming for true intuitive eating. Nothing is banned, there are a few people with specific WOE (vegan and vegetarian for example - some avoid dairy, or have specific intolerances, we don't care what you do - Paleo would fit in fine) but in general most of us aim, most of the time, to eat real food, plenty of veg, low sugar, little or no processed food but no guilt if/when we feel like a bowl of pasta or a takewaway now and again - the only 'rule' is conscious choices and mindful eating. Lots of great meal and snack ideas [smiile].

Sleep, thanks for clarifying Bindi's question, I must admit to enjoy feeling full rather than no longer hungry ;) I don't eat untill I am over full, though.

Thanks for the link to the Eating better thread - will pop by ;)

Sleep I didn't mention about calories did I ? So not sure why my point needed clarifying but I might be missing something here .

misscph of course you must do what is best for you but if your starving then your body is asking you for food. If I attempt to starve myself in any way, shape or form it will definitely lead to overeating and bingeing.

No, but the conversation then switched to MFP and calories so I thought that was how it was interpreted, as 'too much food' so often is!

Instead of fasting could you not just eat until you are satisfied now and then wait until you feel that genuine hunger to eat your next meal. That feeling of wanting food so badly is how your body tells you it is genuinely hungry. Most of us eat for "mouth hunger" like when a cake or a biscuit is in our view and we just have to have it. Take that feeling of "starvation" and use it as your base for knowing when you are genuinely hungry.

ie measuring 'enough' or 'too much ' according to calories rather than hunger.. I accept that if you are eating more than you need then by implication you are probably also eating more calories than you need !

I think it was Raw who mentioned calories and my fitness pal.

Have read back and see exactly what you meant now Sleep. Sorry, just got confused.

Yes, I was the one who mentioned myfitnesspal, (and carb counting really, but the app counts calories as it's main measure, protein, fat and carbs are also measured automatically).

As I said in pp, no counting calories/carbs is generally not what I do but I think it can be a useful tool for short term use, even Robb Wolf and other "gurus" advise it is a useful tool on occasion because often the years of yo yo dieting, metabolic disturbance (blood sugar swings etc) and low fat dieting have skewed people's sense of hunger/fullness and portion size...

I lost the first 6 stones without counting or measuring, but as I get closer to goal, I think I need to look carefully at portions in a way I didn't need to before (it is easier to lose weight when you have a lot to lose!).

Myfitnesspal is just a tool to help with that... And I certainly don't want to be doing it long term... But I need to learn what is an appropriate amount to be eating now, at this stage in my weight loss iykwim.

Actually, it's probably me who is a bit off track, reading back through, calories aren't being counted, but measurements of macronutrients are...same difference - no calculation/scientific recommendation can you tell you what you need to be healthy and the 'right' weight better than your own body can .

Sleep, yes I agree.
Although by moving to three meals which are healthy at the same time every day people do find they stop thinking about food and when they have it. In other words the change in conduct and type of food helps stop the obsessing over it. I count nothing. I eat foods which make me feel good.

(I disagree on sugar in nature - once in a blue moon and if they could avoid the bee stings our ancestors had a bit of honey in some regions, but not all and probably got only a small bit of it. They also might have had some fruit in season but not every week or month of the year. I don't think we need any fruit or honey at all and if your addictive substance is sugar then just like cocaine or alcohol coming off it and moving to normal healthy foodsd tends to balance the mind as well as being healthy too)

However I agree it needs to be kept to a simple message. If you eat only things which our ancestors would have done you do pretty well. If man made it don't eat it was pretty good maxim of one writer 40 years ago and you need very little else than that to eat well.

Fasting is the interesting one. Most cultures and religions have it and it certainly cures a heap of medical issues. It was the standard treatment (at least high fat, low carb was) for epilepsy and diabetes if you go back 60 years. Our ancestors clearly had periods of fast which is why we store fat for those hard times. So if you are really adapted to eating only good foods and lots of good fats try it but I don't think anyone on a new way of eating for life should rush to miss a regular meal. It can utterly derail a lot of people and removes the routine of eating at meal times when hungry and can lead to some people over eating.

What I do find is that most research at the moment at very very long last is pointing to the fact that if we eat what man ate for about 1 million years we tend to do well. High good fats, medium protein and low carb and loads of veg.

I x posted with you rawcoconut . I understand where you are coming from, I have used MFP on occasion to get a clearer idea of macronutrient balance/content and calories myself, it can be useful that way, its the daily tracking to stay within limits that I don't believe in. Also its worth noting that some foods on mfp don't have all the info logged so you always get the calories but not the macros - so use with caution!

Jane - the sugar discussion is an interesting one...particularly the point about our ancestors, what about people who lived in say, California, where fruit would be available pretty constantly? Would they not cope with regular sugar intake better than those from a cold climate? I still think that the main problem with sugar these days is the amount of stuff we have added it to - obviously removing anything man made from your diet would go a long way to addressing this. I don't think there are many people out there getting diabetes from eating too much fruit...unless they are on some crazy diet perhaps, which brings me back to my original point! It depends on how sensitive you are and whether you are addicted of course (entirely possible) but IMHO, for most people, completely eliminating sugar is too punitive, impractical and unsustainable, just a little here and there won't do any great damage and is definitely preferable to intermittent bingeing on it.

Fruit is not as available as you think, in natural habitats. You've got to remember that most of the fruit we cultivate is much bigger, much much sweeter than wild strains, and the tree/bush has been bred to crop very heavily too.

Also, what you see round you, almost anywhere in the world, is a man made, altered landscape - in nature, even in hot humid places, you don't get huge orchards and field of fruit canes.

I certainly think the emphasis should on leaves/shoot and roots rather than fruit for health, and berry fruits being better when you do have fruit.

Actually, I think binging on fruit and honey (I mean if you are a wild human) is probably the reason our insulin system is the way it is - to cope with, and store, the large amounts of energy you might find in a patch of seasonal fruit, or a hive of honey...

That's my thought anyway .

To lay down fat during warm, seasonal fruit time, to get you through the subsequent cold spell when food is scarce you mean? Yes, I can see all that. Still stand by what I say about total abstention today though .

I think we are all on the same page on this thread even if there are a few differences and the main thing is to encourage people to eat well. The only difference is I think total abstinence is what you need. You wouldn't give a cocaine addict a little bit of cocaine or your alcoholic father a small whisky every night yet people say the same to sugar addicts, even though sugar affects the brain just like those drugs. It just does not make sense to give a bit of the addictive substance. There is no need for it. It's really easy once you've given it up to move to normal foods and avoid the junk foods. It just takes a few weeks to adapt and then you're done with them for ever and don't want them.