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Lone parents

Use our Single Parent forum to speak to other parents raising a child alone.

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Original poster

DD,5, refusing to stay o/n at exh, would you insist?

47 replies

arwen · 13/09/2009 08:38

We have managed fairly well in the 4 years we have been apart to ensure the children have a reasonable amount of time with us both although in reality I do 90%. My dd has never been as keen as ds 7 on staying at daddys and is now point blank refusing to go. We have no idea what to do for the best. I struggle with forcing her to stay (she is fine when I leave but gets upset when she is told off or at trigger points like bedtime and cries for me) This leads to exh phoning me, me listening to her cry and often collecting her or if I calm her being so distressed myself I have no kind of break at all.
There are no issues of trust here, I have given her every opportunity to discuss what is the problem and it appears that it's not daddy, just that she wants to be with mummy.We are working together on this but just don't know what to do. It feels wrong to let a 5 yr old call the shots, it also seems wrong to insist she stays when she is distressed and upset. We both worry that if we can't sort this out she will stop going altogether and that is not a good solution for either of us.She will go to my mum's but that isn't a long term solution as it doesn't give her time with her dad although I get a break.
Any advice gratefully accepted but as this is an emotive subject that we are finding very distressing please don't tear me apart for asking for help.
BTW Ds has high functioning asd, not sure if that has a bearing but am offering all info!

OP posts:

WhingeBobShitPants · 14/09/2009 15:31

I see your point mrsjammi - but I don't think forcing a very young child to stay overnight somewhere she doesn't want to is right - even if it makes sense to all the adults involved. You're not giving enough weight to the child's feelings IMO.

GypsyMoth · 14/09/2009 15:34

courts order contact and won't take this sort of thing into consideration at all. its a phase. its part of you job op,to facilitate this contact and encvourage your dd. you know your child best,you know what strategies will work with her....

if her dad took you to court then it would be forced,you'd have little say.

WhingeBobShitPants · 14/09/2009 15:37

What would they do then, physically pry the distressed child from her mother and hand her over?

How awful

it all sounds counter-productive to me, this forcing - she isn't going to come to love staying there if she is made to stay before she feels ready

GypsyMoth · 14/09/2009 15:40

there are ways round it,if op wanted to am sure she would find one!!

handover location could change,or person doing handover.
one way i have heard of,is that dd has a special toy that waits in daddies car/lives at daddies house. a fave toy from home to go along may work. as i said,op knows her child best.

mrsjammi · 14/09/2009 15:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Jude101 · 14/09/2009 15:49

Arwen said that her husband has had depression, gets upset and doesn't cope well if things aren't going well. No wonder her daughter doesn't want to go. The fact that he calls her when her dd is distressed also points to him not coping. It is her ex-dh's inabiity to cope that needs to be addressed, not the fact that dd doesn't want to go IMO. How you do that is another matter, and not easy to address, but to force the child to go in these circumstances would be wrong.

hottiebear · 14/09/2009 16:24

Thinking about it from her perspective, maybe she feels something like this...

"Mum and dad have split up. I spend most of my time with mum. I feel safe and comfortable with mum. She knows me inside out, all my likes and dislikes, what to say when I get upset, how to sing my bedtime songs. I don't know dad as well as I know mum. I love him but he is not my mum. Sometimes when I'm with him and he does something wrong, like singing my bedtime songs wrong, it makes me really want my mum who would do it right. When I get upset he doesn't say the right things or reassure me convincingly. He doesn't make me feel safe and comforted, instead he always phones my mum and she comes over and picks me up and sorts everything out so it is all fine. I now don't really trust my dad to look after me because he can't deal with my upset himself- he always phones mum- and I am too young to comfort myself. It makes me really not want to see him now because he can't comfort and reassure me when I get upset, and even my mum thinks this because she comes to get me. I don't trust him to look after me like mum does because he doesn't trust himself and my mum doesn't trust him."

I think a lot of the problem your ex's confidence in himself being able to reassure her and calm her down when she is upset. Like what some other posters have said- their children cry for them but their h's don't entertain the idea that mummy is available when it is special daddy time. They both need the confidence to trust your ex.
I think that you need to have a good chat with DD and her dad, together, about why it is difficult for her to stay with him. Let her voice her opinions, make her feel heard but gently insist that it is very important that she spends time with her dad. Ask her how she would like to do this. With you their too at first? You could spend time just the 3 of you (DS at your mums) but with you in the background and dad doing the 'caring' but you are there for reassurance if needed but always encouraging her to go to her dad. This will encourage their relationship and help ex see his daughter when she is not sad and angry so they will be able to have fun together in a relaxed way.

Then a day out on their own? Doing something really fun together? You could suggest things like giving her an old t-shirt that smells of you/with your perfume sprayed on to take with her. Gradually building up the trust between both of them in a way that feels ok for everyone.

I would also tell her that during these arranged times with her dad that she can phone you if she really needs to (but try and get dad to use this as a last resort), but that you will not be coming to get her until the arranged time is up. She needs to trust that you will come and get her but it is unsustainable that this is at the drop of a hat. So you have a prearranged time eg 1 hr, 2 hrs, 5pm etc that she knows about and has agreed to beforehand, and that is when you collect her.

This is how I would handle it, might not be right for you and will probably be very difficult to start with and you might not make much progress for a while.
But it is so important for her and your ex that they have a good relationship, and while I totally agree with posters who have said that you need to pay attention to her feelings, I think doing it this way means that you can do both- relationship is maintained and improved in a gradual way that she feels comfortable with.

WhingeBobShitPants · 14/09/2009 16:30

mrsjammi your posts make total rational sense from an adult's perspective

but it's a very heartless attitude which takes no account of the child's feelings - contact is about her and her welfare, not the father's rights, and if he loves his dd he won't want to force the issue and upset her

it's not about the nrp being a second-class citizen, it's about taking things at a pace and in a way that is suitable for the little girl, ie doesn't rush or distress her

mrsjammi · 14/09/2009 16:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

hottiebear · 14/09/2009 16:44

Also forgot to say- building up in this way gradually will help your ex have confidence too. For example, if you are out the 3 of you, he should try and act like you're not there, not talk to you, not ask for your opinion, not defer to you and try to deal with DD himself.
And you shouldn't comment on anything he does, then or after, unless it is very important. Reassure him that he did great if you think that will help, give him some tips only if he wants but try to let him see that you have confidence in him as a good dad. (which I assume you do?)

hottiebear · 14/09/2009 17:03

If she sees you trusting dads ability to look after her and deferring to him on these times when it is the 3 of you then she will be better able to trust him too.

For example, "I'm scared of the tiger at the zoo mummy, can I hold your hand?" "Ok, but why don't you hold daddy's hand too because he's not scared and he will look after you!" Laughing and joking and daddy can make a show of protecting his daughter etc.

Original poster

arwen · 14/09/2009 20:23

I do appreciate all the advice, we have been trying to do all that has been suggested for at least a year, We spend a lot of family time together where we offer consistent parenting and back each other up with him often taking the lead. we even managed a night camping together this summer. He comes here at least once a week and cooks tea, does bedtime whilst I am around but might pop out, do other stuff and when they do go it is only for 24 hours sat lunch-sun lunch.

To be honest it is wearing me down. He tries hard but the depression does make him quick to anger and when it doesn't go his way he just doesn't cope. i agree with the poster who said that a lot of the issues are his inability to cope. I do think she doesn't feel secure and confident of his moods but I am powerless to do anything about that, believe me I have been trying for years. Perhaps that is why I am so loathe to force her to go.

OP posts:

hottiebear · 14/09/2009 22:09

FWIW I think she sounds very sensible then. She knows she is not getting what she needs with him and she is letting you know that.

You can't really make him get help to cope better (which you have obviously tried) but you could explain to him that that is the problem and if he wants to do something about it (and therefore have a better relationship with his daughter) then that's up to him.

If I was you I would carry on with the family things you are doing but give her to your mum (if she is ok with that) for the overnights, and try not to make it into too big a deal. She is still maintaining contact with her father and you will get your much needed peace.

It sounds really difficult for you all, I really sympathise. I'm sure once she gets a bit older (and more self sufficient) she will be better able to 'look after herself' if her dad can't do that to her liking now.

hottiebear · 14/09/2009 22:16

I also think that you need to encourage that brilliant part of her that knows what's right for herself. If you force her to go she will feel that you have ignored that part of her and will be more inclined to ignore it herself too. And its very important and will serve her well.

Stephief · 15/09/2009 07:03

Hi,
I have to say the depression thing may be an issue.
The problem with mental health issues is that other people can 'feed off' of them. My partner has bi polar (amongst other things) and the kids definately do react to his mood changes, as do I (though thankfully not in a negative way!) so it could be simply that when her dad is feeling really low, she is picking up on this and doesnt feel comfortable with it and doesnt want to be around him. I know it doesnt help the situation, but it might shed some light on it, and why she doesnt know why she doesnt want to see him. And if her dad always calls when she is upset, it may suggest he doesnt really cope too well with it either. Though he probably feels like a failure parent because of it and wouldnt want to outwardly admit to it.

ChocHobNob · 15/09/2009 12:42

Just a question, but those saying don't send her if she doesn't want to go, what would you say if your children, at 5, turned around and said "I don't want to come home to you, I want to stay with my Daddy/Mummy". Would you let them?

OP, I think this is something you need to discuss and decide between you and your ex. What does he want to do?

I feel for you though. It must be awful having an upset child and trying to figure out what to do for the best x

Original poster

arwen · 15/09/2009 13:56

The thing is ChocHobNob we have discussed it until we are blue in the face, we have discussed it with our parents/friends, even the family doctor and the advice is conflicting. The weight of it does come down in favour of not pushing her as it may in the long term work against their realtionship but whilst that is our gut feeling also he is obviously very upset and I am concerned this path will also be damaging long term. we feel dammed if we do and dammed if we don't tbh. This is a very constructive and helpful thread though and I am forwarding it on to him. He agrees with the comments that she feels insecure and is aware that that is due to his moods but it doesn't seem to provide enough impetutus to invoke change.

OP posts:

hottiebear · 15/09/2009 14:52

Re what you're saying about it being damaging in the long term,
I doubt she will turn round in 10 years and say to you "I don't have a good relationship with my dad, you should have forced me to spend more time with him."
But she may well say "why did you force me to go when it wasn't right for me?"

Original poster

arwen · 15/09/2009 17:04

Fair point hottiebear, that is my gut instinct but it is hard to know that we are doing the right thing. I guess we may just have to go with what we think is best and be prepared to adjust as required as opposed to looking for a long term solution.

OP posts:

Stephief · 15/09/2009 20:17

Chochobnob

I am in the 'dont send her' brigade, and if the situation were reversed, and the child didnt want to come back to mum, and got as distressed at the thought of it as the OPs daughter does, I would have to question then why she is getting so upset. Its not about a child merely saying 'I dont want to go to daddies' its about a child becoming very distressed at having to go there. Its just not the same thing.

And Brie5, the courts do take this sort of thing into consideration, very much so. They have agencies involved to ascertain what is right for the child, based on how the child feels as much as how the parents do. Its something I am very much personally involved with at the moment.

tvaerialmagpiebin · 21/09/2009 18:48

I was in the OP's daughter's shoes whenI was small. My mum made me and my brother go to our dad's even though we both didn't want to. She was advised to make us go by GPs, HVs, even Gingerbread. She hated it, and felt with all her heart that it was not the right thing to do for us. I do look back now and wish she hadn't made us go. We were so unhappy. The OP is fortunate that her ex loves his daughter, I can tell you that is 100% worse when your father really only wants contact to spite your mother, and drops planned contact without notice if a better plan comes along (i.e. chance of a shag).

So I would go with the "don't force her" brigade. And I do think that the ex needs to work on his depression issues for his own sake as well as his daughter's.

SolidGoldBrass · 21/09/2009 20:08

Don't force her. This isn't a child being awkward, she's uncomfortable with him at present because his depression is making him behave in ways that make her uneasy. (This isn;t to say he's a bad person or a bad father or up to anything untoward, but his depression is his problem and it isn't fair to make it hers).

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