What is a reasonable access arrangement?

[SparklePrincess]

H & I are currently in mediation thrashing things out for the future. He wants to have the dc from friday night until monday morning every other week & half of school holidays.
Im not overly happy about him having them overnight on the sunday because its a school night & id rather they came home in time for their dinner on a sunday instead to give them a chance to calm down before the school week begins. I have no problem with him visiting them during the week as long as I am informed in advance when hes likely to come. The reason I think hes going for the extra night is because according to the CSA site if they stayed with him over so many nights a year he could reduce payments to me. I honestly think its nothing to do with wanting to spend the time with them, as he`s never shown much of an interest before & consistently refused to take time off in school holidays to do family stuff.
What do you think? What would be a usual access arrangement?

Thanks Xenia
We spent this evening going over our probable income & outgoings to try to work out a balance. Of course he comes up with the lower figure based on CSA rates, but he did agree to go halves with me on after school clubs, school trips etc, which kind of makes up for it in a way, as long as he does actually stump up the cash.
Think were headed in the right direction, but it may take some time.
Going back again in 2 weeks time.

VIxnpips is right.

I'm the wife of a NCP and, 10 years down the line, I don't think any of us can understand why it was so difficult in the beginning.... it just comes down to human emotions.

Now we have an arrangement that the kids are with us when their mum needs time and with thier mum when we need time.... ATM, I have 1 of my DSDs because both of her parents are away... I get her ready for school, drop her off, pick her up, do her homework and will do it for both my DSDs later this year.

10 years later, it all seems so much calmer.

That said, I don't think you are being unreasonable to treat Sundays as a school night. Can you not offer a deal whereby your ex does get SUnday night, but only as a trial to ensure the kids don't suffer Monday morning?

Your plan sounds v reasonable.

My ex sees dc(ds and step dd) every friday night til sunday night and lots in the holidays too. If he has a week or two off work then he will always have them for that whole time.

He still pays me around £600 per month towards the mortgage as maintenance too,regardless of how many nights he has them for.

Will your ex want to see them every weekend, do you think?

By the way, I meant to add, the maintenence / CS doesn't change according to how much we have the kids.

That was agreed years ago. If we have the kids more than the 'stipulation', then good for us!

I'd like to think my DSDs know they are welcome here morning, noon and night... And NOT because I'm totting up some sort of a charge back!!

But Sunday does count as a school night Youcannotbeserious because there is school the next day.
That arrangement stands at the moment anyway, I hope he sticks to it for their sake. Also, it will be great to have some time to myself for once.

Your maintenance figure sounds great allgonebellyup My ex wants to give me half that amount although he could easily afford to give a lot more.

Sorry, SP - That's what I meant... Sunday is a school night... Sorry if I wrote that wrongly....

If we have a 'fun weekend', then the kids go back to their mum's at 6pm on Sunday as that's time to settle back into school....

Youcannotbeserious, my exs figure for maintenance is based on between 104 & 156 nights a year. According to his plan he will have them around 109 nights, so entitling him to lop another 1/7th off the weekly maintenance. Im pretty sure thats why hes said thats what he wants to do. Thats why im a bit pi$$ed off. Still, id love to be a fly on the wall when he tries getting them ready for school.

Thats my concern about them staying with him on what I consider to be a school night. They will be so hyped up after seeing him. I would really prefer it if they came home sunday night in order to calm down ready for the school week. I have no problem whatsoever about him coming to see them during the week.

I don't blame you....... The maintenence (not including CS) we pay DH's ex is higher than the number you mentioned and I'm talking 10 years down the line (the maintenence goes down each year, to account for the kids getting older, DH's ex's ability to work)... It used to be MUCH higher!

Plus, there is CS and school fees which we pay and we have the kids around 100 days... I can't say I've added them up recently...

Still, as you say... set your alarm on Monday mornings, then make yourself a cuppa and go back to bed!!

The thing is any agreement is usually considered to be the minimum number of days. By putting that stipulation in you are limiting when the children can see their dad, and if they want to go more or if you need help when sick or have a works training course you have to go on then you won't be able to ask him. That is why I suggested you go with the 2 overnights average a week. Then any extras are never a consideration and you won't have to say no or look for alternatives. You will know that figure is unlikely to go down as to get an extra 1 night average a week would be a lot of additional days. SO you can plan accordingly.

Also bear in mind him saying he will pay half of the child care costs isn't that great an offer. You will get up to 80% of it paid if you are on CTC & WTC. So he is paying half of the other 20%. Would be better all round for him to have the children more and cheaper for you overall than paying the childcare. ALso better for the children to spend time with family who they will build a better relationship with rather than strangers at a holiday club who they are unlikely to see much of in future...

Gilly

In a sense they need him more not less so he gets better at getting them ready for school and it's not a competitoin as to whetheryou're better at it or him. He might indeed be more efficient than you are if he is given the chance.

What typically happens though is child m is arranged on one basis and then man completely reneges on contact arrangements but the money doesn't go up.

Depends on working arrangemnts. If you both work full time then you do have childcare costs. When my ex left we had a full time nanny who cost me over £20k a year for the pre schoolers and I carried on paying for that as I earn more. But it's worth looking at how the costs pan out in terms of the effect on benefits too in sorting out the best way for payments to be made. Bear in mind too that some people disappear abroad and never pay a penny again so factor that in too (and die - get life insurance for him and pay the premiums)

We have my stepsons every other weekend from Friday evening to Monday morning - my partner picks them up on his way home from work on Friday, so they get here at about 7pm, and he drops them at school on Monday morning. We definitely all (their mother included) prefer that our Sunday doesn't get cut short with logistics.

The boys also come to us every Wednesday afternoon - my partner leaves work early and picks them up at around 4pm so we have the afternoon/evening for the five of us, and then he drops them at school again on Thursday morning.

We also have a little more than half the holidays, plus extra weeks when the boys' mother is travelling for work.

It's a good arrangement for us, though we would like to have the boys a little more.

You could suggest adding a clause to the agreement in mediation, but it might just get his goat up!.. but then the mediation times are for you to bring things up and work something out.
Like I say, things always change and aren't set in stone ( my D.EX was doing it all without the CSA involved.. then he got mad at me and refused to pay.. hense CSA.. but then changed his job ( from a Teacher to become a driver) to go to a lower wage.. oh and upped his nights with the kids, even tho he doesn't actually have them, his parents do... just to keep payments down!)
Best thing I have learnt is to work, claim Child tax credit and work to that to keep your head above water.. seeing the CSA payments as a bonus. I have been told by the CSA in the past that " you can't rely on these payments for your bills or childrens needs" when I called to see where a payment was. ( by the way he had payed.. but the CSA didn't release the money to me for a further 14 days!)
Good luck with it all, and remember you can do this
x

Perhaps you could bring up in the mediation sessions that you think his motives are money related and would he be willing to come to an agreement with you that regardless of how many days he has them he will only reduce the payment by 1/7th or 2/7ths. This way you will be more happy to trial things and see how they go.

I personally don't see that an average of 2 nights a week out of 7 as that great really for the children or their dad. Parents should accept equal care and resposibility for their children. I think that agreeing to a 2 overnight reduction would make an even playing field and take away the money concerns from this equation. Then if after a while he doesn't stick to it, has the children less and doesn't pay more as a result then you can always reapply to the CSA saying circumstances have changed and you wish for a recalculation.

It also means you don't have to worry if you need/want him to have them extra times, midweek overnight etc too as it's not borderline unde the average and you won't end up with him recalculating when you want or the childre need to have an extra day here or there with their dad.

Tread carefully or he will be the one saying that you are the one with financial motives behind your unwillingness for additional contact time

Gilly

Spoke at mediation about my concerns & mediator just said that if that happens I should go to the CSA. Reality of the matter is (I have a friend who used to be in CSA) that CSA would write to him & he would deny everything & nothing would happen. Far better to get things sorted out based on reality now.

Ive decided there is no way on earth im agreeing to him keeping them till monday morning during school time. My main issue hasnt changed, im simply not happy with the idea of them effectively coming beck from a mini holiday with their dad only to be brought down to earth with a bump by being dropped off at school. Its simply not fair on the dc to do that regardless of any other issues.

Ex took them away for the first time this weekend by himself. He lied to me about where they would be staying, saying they would be in one place (which I dont have any contact details for) then taking them somewhere entirely different, which again, I have no contact details for. He met up with a group of people who are strangers to the dc & wasted what should of been his sole time with his children on a day out with his mates, who he can see at any time. Probably wanted to show them off like little toys. When I phoned to speak to them at 9pm (as instructed) he had gone to sleep & they were left to their own devices in a strange house. Little one actually had to wake him up to answer the phone. They had no proper sleeping arrangements. They slept top to tail in a single bed & him on the floor with a sleeping bag. The youngest obviously hadnt had her teeth cleaned or hair done while she was with him & eldest got very upset when the time came to say goodbye. (She hates goodbyes & always gets upset)

To be honest im not happy about him having them at all if thats his idea of taking care of them. Theres no way he`s taking them to school with dirty teeth & hair, scruffy uniform & crying. I simply cannot allow that to happen.

Every other weekend fri evening to sun evening plus half of holidays (not that thats likely to happen in reality) & should he wish, he can visit them on a week night is perfectly fair & acceptable isnt it?

I think given this weekend and the lack of care he has taken over his children, Fri evening to Sunday is very fair. If you have another mediation session, use it to mention the lack of teeth cleaning and hair brushing otherwise it could become a bigger issue for you.

I will definitely mention it.
What sort of a mother does he think I am that I`d allow that sort of negligence on a school night?

I have not read the full thread so... apologies if I am repeating what someone has already said.

The agreement we have is that DS goes to his dad's house every second weekend from Friday to Monday (Pick up/drop at school), every Wednesday night and his dad takes him to school all days but wednesday.

I was a bit reluctant about DS staying with him on Sunday night but I was persuaded to try it after reading a few comments from other people in Mumsnet. The agreement is working fine, DS loves to have weekends away with exH and having the full weekend also allows me to plan for special things or trips with DS.
My only unnegotiable request is for DS not to be sent to school with a bag of clothes. That can be picked up/returned at any other morning when he's taken to school.

We also keep a little booklet with information to pass on, ie. if he had not feel well, what medicines he has been given and times, if the teacher has mentioned something or there is a special homework /school request for a particular date that falls on the day the other one won't be around.