Help me explain this to child

[justlikebuses]

5 year old has been no contact (court ordered) for over 2 years.
Despite various professionals and cafcass wanting a FFH, the magistrate has thrown it out each time they asked. Addendum section 7 ordered for final hearing next year. In the eyes of the law he is a safe man so cafcass will have to follow the law and as he is “no risk” it is likely contact will progress quite quickly.
During this time I have not badmouthed father, child thinks he has been away with work and hasn’t questioned it. There was not a deep relationship prior to breakup and we never lived together but he was always labelled Daddy.
The other day I was in the bath and said to them “I would just like 20 mins like Chili but I don’t have a bandit to look after you” (There are older kids here to mind them whilst I am in the bath and that’s a Bluey reference)
They then said “yes we do but he’s at work a long way away”. I didn’t know what to say back. It’s suddenly occurred to me that when he does get access the child will think that we will get back together. I’m certain of it.

If cafcass ask again about seeing him, which they will do, the child will say yes obviously.

However, he has since moved someone else in with kids. How can I tell my child this? I feel I need to do so but not in a way that can be classed as alienation. But I know if I said to my child that I can’t come with you when you see Daddy and he has other children living with him and he also lives with their mum, then they may feel differently and not be so excited and enthusiastic.
I haven’t had a relationship since so in the child’s mind it’s totally plausible we’d be all together when they returned from “work”.

Have you been through family court and had CafCass involvement?
If I tell my child "Daddy was really unkind to us and your siblings and he's not allowed to see you at the moment but he soon will be able to spend time with you"
Then they say to cafcass
"Mummy said..." then Bam that's me up for parental alienation and with the way family courts are there could be a switch of residency and I end up with supervised as I can't be trusted.
It's that brutal. I was praised by cafcass for not telling the child the truth.
I need to tell my child the truth without them throwing either me or themselves under the bus.
Regardless of what the magistrate thinks, there are enough reports and evidence to back up he is a danger to women and children.

Also the other dad is not a danger, and there is no set arrangement so not all of them go off to his at once as he lives close by. It's completely different.

And I rather he didn't bother with us if I'm honest. He didn't before the split and is only doing this to control me and my movements.

But why would you say that Daddy was unkind? It's not necessary even if it's true

I've provided some ideas for a script which just needs to be very simple

"Daddy actually isn't away working. He and I aren't married anymore." It really isn't difficult not to get into the language of alienation here. If DC asks why, it's because mum and dad weren't getting on anymore. If he asks where Dad is now, you tell.

I'm not taking your situation lightly btw, you must be distraught at the reaction of that horrible magistrate. I hope you're as okay as possible.

You're in a tricky situation op. But it is possible to be truthful (in an age appropriate way) without being accused of parental alienation.

My kids barely see their dad. I could tell them he's an abusive, controlling bastard, but I haven't, because they need to be able to have a relationship with him on their own terms.

It's ok to say that you fell out, and that daddy wasn't allowed to see dc for a while. When pushed, because kids are inquisitive buggers, just say that it wasn't allowed for them to see their daddy. It's ok to say that you aren't together because you fell out - no doubt your dc has friends at school they've fallen out with. It's ok to say that things are going to be tough while you all get used to dc seeing daddy again. None of this is parental alienation, it's a very simple, age-appropriate truth.

My dc are almost adults, and I will never tell them the horrors their dad put me through, that's my relationship with him, not theirs. They knew why we moved, they knew that they weren't going to be seeing him as often. But not much more. They've been able to build their own relationship based on it's own merits (which has fallen apart because, well, he's a bastard).

Can you appeal the decision in any way? Get another magistrate?
Firstly you need to tell your child that daddy is not away with work, that daddy just lives in another house however far away. I think you might need help explaining the situation to the child. Is he in school yet? You could ask them or maybe a therapist? Private if you are in a hurry. Does he have a social worker?
I would be tempted to tell him that mummy/daddy don’t love eachother anymore or aren’t friends anymore (but love him) but I know what you mean about having to be careful with everything you say.
If/when he’s definitely going to see his dad explain about the room with toys and someone else being there, and where you will be while he’s there etc. I wouldn’t tell him about his partner/ other kids at this point.

I could have appealed as there was procedural error, even the legal advisor invited me to. However, that would have been about £7k in legal fees and I'd have to pay other side's fees if I lost the appeal.
My barrister said in the particular court I'm in he would have put my chances at 30%, despite the errors.
I am waiting on a court transcript so that I can complain about this particular magistrate however I have also been advised that complaining when still in proceedings goes against you, but I also only have 3 months to complain by which point I wouldn't be back in court yet.
I have booked a meeting with the headteacher tomorrow as have kept the school fully informed and have a great relationship with them.

Thank you, seems like you understand where I'm coming from.
Child will see what their father is like eventually but will be damaged in the process.
As mum's we are trusted to keep our children from harm; except in family court where it's contact at all costs 🙄

I’d pay the £7 k

but then I did and o don’t have a house that I own but we are safe and happy.

Personally you’ve lied and the longer it lies the more it goes on

Take the elephant in the room.

eg Hi Sam I just wanted to talk about your Dad as I wanted you to know the set up and what is happening.

As you know Mummy and Daddy have never lived together / or broke up a few years ago

When we broke up Mummy stayed here living and looking after you
Daddy moved to ….., and in with a lady called Dave and her children.

We have a system where if mummy and daddy’s can’t agree we ask people outside to make the best situation for the child. This could be that one parents isn’t ready to look after a child / might be Ill etc

Up until recently this system has said that it’s best that you live here with mummy and that you don’t see daddy. That might change in the future

have you got any questions?

I had why did you split up?
did he love me?
did he want me?
etc

i decided to take the bulk of the hit eg we broke up because we didn’t love each other anymore. He went to live abroad, yes he did know mummy had a baby but he wasn’t ready to be a father. Yes he knows your name, yes he could of seen you when you were a baby
the question about if he loves anyone I can’t answer. I don’t know he anymore.
he didn’t not want you, he didn’t want any marriage or any family
he didn’t reject you, ‘you didn’t exist’ he didn’t want any child but I decided I that I wanted you and was strong enough to do both the mummy and daddy role

etc

plan it and don’t answer ‘for him’

the court decided living with mummy was better for you
why?
because it was the best place for you - they took their time and looked at lots of things it was a long decision

can i see him? If the court thinks it best but we need to think about it etc

@Rocksonabeach I'm already £20k in deep with costs. And looking at another £8k for next hearing. Plus I had to have the appeal submitted within a week and it took me a few days to scrape myself off the floor.

We never lived together. He always had his own house and we never went there. Child knew he had his own house.

@Rocksonabeach cafcass have also praised for what I said to child about work, and they preferred not to mention court process. It's recommended generally that young kids are not to be told about court processes.

Oh and I kept everything thinking of they wanted to know what actually happened or he produced his own narrative when old enough I would give them a folder (with the offer of support or counselling etc ) equally it is to be destroyed on my death if the children are older than 30.

O referred every decision to the court think this - contact centre and then we can see how that goes

at the final hearing insist on hand overs in a public place and contact through a different and ask for a non molestation order to be put in place (document your injuries and threat to life) eg through contact centre

get as many statements as you can - former wife, girlfriends, messages, Gp reports etc everything you can throw at it.

at the end I didn’t have a barrister but he did and he got less than the contact I offered and a restraining order but I always thought about my child.

the relationship was toxic and abusive I get it - been there but the court starts with the position both parents have a right to a relationship with their child and the child has a right to know both parents. The court also want both parents to suck it up, forgive, forget, act like adults - put the child first and co parent - that’s an ideal world and it doesn’t happen but they want both parents to make an effort to do that! Because surely that’s sensible they don’t understand at first glance how abusers work and how they exist to destroy but in my experience they saw him in the end. As did my child

Really I didn’t explain court by calling it that. I just explained it wasn’t me.

cafcass I give up - that’s not right surely! You lied and he can say ‘actually not been busy with work - I wanted to see you mummy said no - so I’ve just had to go through a huge wait to get someone else to make her let me see you ….. ‘ etc that’s fact not fiction

eek you are a load and he is the golden dad

You are liar and he has told them first that he fought for them rather than the narrative about making the best decision !

I went through Cafcass when my Ds was 4 ..

They didn’t speak to my Ds .

I think it’s shit trying to second guess everything that can be misinterpreted .

I would just simply say when you said …. I was wondering if you remembered Daddy lives in another house.

it sounds like he isn’t fit to see Ds but know it is a relentless fight .

goid luck op

@Rocksonabeach You've been through it too then.

My whole case has been a farce. Cafcass initially wanted fact find hearing (as did I). Magistrate threw it out and said it's historic abuse so doesn't matter as he hasn't hurt us in a couple of years. Next hearing the magistrate ordered section 7 and cafcass (different SW) wanted fact find. Ordered to submit witness statements. One of mine died beforehand and the other, a crucial disclosure from nursery, was lost by the nursery themselves during a handover of information. Magistrate said if I uncover anymore witnesses or evidence then it will not be looked at. Evidence from his other child and my adult child dismissed. Evidence from Claire's law dismissed. Then during hearing magistrate absolutely refused to listen to my barrister.
I'm not sure how the next hearing can be final when there hasn't been any contact at all yet! Which is why it's crucial that child fully understands the situation as there will be no way of going back to court f it goes belly up for at least a year or I risk a barring order.

@Rocksonabeach I also thought about a folder to handover when they are older. I need them not to blame me when older, question why I forced them to go to contact to someone who just shouts at them and makes them feel generally shot on a good day, or slaps them on a bad day (but that's just different parenting styles according to court).
I'm glad you've fought hard for your kids and it's sad that the opportunity was not taken up by their father to be a better person x

I would correct the issue now - emotion out and personal feelings aside

eg child might ask why might I not be safe why did the court have to look at it

my reply - because of things that happened in the past - they are dealt with and resolved but many people listened carefully egc

in my case - she’s now 16 and wants and has had no contact and seems to have her head screwed on - I did even organise independent counselling when she was hitting puberty at aged 13 so she could offload any questions to someone else -

she wants no contact and she hasn’t seen the folder

I am aware if she gets married or has her own children or hits 18 things might change but she sees it very much as children can make mistakes ( & she didn’t) but he was an adult never took responsibility and hasn’t ever paid maintaininance etc and it wasn’t personal to her he just isn’t a nice person and was a grown man unable to be a proper dad or husband and she’s looking for better as a life partner.

she also believes he has had 16 years to say sorry and hasn’t - so excuses and him contacting her in the future would be for his benefit and not hers …..

Hey so sorry to hear what your going through. I have been though something similar. Do you have a cafcass officer or guardian? My kids had a cafcass guardian and she was honestly fantastic really really good (I was sceptical). I also insisted on a fact find. It resulted in a no contact order.
What I would say is try not to think too far ahead, anything could happen. Eg he gets bored, carn't be bothered with the contact centre, etc etc. honestly there are sooo many things that could change the course of action.
Your child is very young. I would just correct them with out over informing them. Eg, no we never lived together and no there's no hope of us getting back together, that won't happen.
Regarding him "being away for work". Simply say to be honest I don't know I haven't seen him for a long time. Don't get caught up in saying negative stuff or pre emptying the future as you simply don't know.
If you want to tak more feel free to personal message me, I'm always a bit careful what I say in here.

Update:
Child was writing Christmas cards, I asked who to, they reeled off names including Daddy. I said that was kind. Then they asked where he lived so I said he lives up the road and now he lives with another lady. They asked who else. I said the lady's children. Child said they needed to toilet and then asked for a bath. Bath, story and bed as normal. Then horrendous nightmares through the night.
This morning woke up to finish cards. One left. Asks who to send it to and I said "I thought you were going to send it to Daddy?". Child said they had changed their mind and how to spell random friend's name.
I've got a horrible feeling I've f*cked it.
He's allowed to send things so hopefully there'll be something in the post for Christmas that I can speak a bit positively about.

OP you didn't f it up. That sort of straightforward answer is exactly what is recommended. It was factual and no emotion.

If you can try to work in an opportunity for questions later on. Maybe raise the question " do you want to send a different card to Daddy?" And see if there's any questions or comments.
Kids process very different to adults so don't necessarily attribute nightmare etc to this.
You did the right thing by being honest and factual