Do I have to let ex see his son on Christmas Day?

[Marissa1984]

I am on maternity leave but my exh is a chef working long shifts and with only one guaranteed day off each week - Saturday. I am keeping contact via text messages only and I agreed to decide on a pick up and drop off time at a neutral location as of next week and have given him a time slot for this saturday, but I pointed out we needed to make arrangements for Christmas.

He says Christmas Day (also his birthday) is his only day off and he wants to see our ds then, however as I was so looking forward to the 3 of us spending it as a family which now won't be happening I am reluctant to allow him this as I am finding his visits very upsetting as he only left 6 weeks ago when ds was just 4 weeks old and I don't want my day ruined by seeing him, and I don't want ds to pick up on my emotions and end up having his day ruined too. I know he is too young to realise what Christmas is but his first Christmas means a lot to me.

When I told him I had already said that Christmas day was a no no he got funny with me then involved his mother as he claimed I had told her he could see ds Christmas day, and I had explained to him that I had wanted to if we were getting back together, but not now as we're not. I explained his behaviour over the past 6 months to his mother and she backed off saying she will make him take responsibility and support both of us (ner ner!!!)

I have arranged for me and ds to stay with my mum from Christmas Eve until Boxing Day, and she has made it very clear my exh is not welcome, as have all of my family. We all live in the same town so it's not like we're far away, but I can't even contemplate seeing my exh's face over Christmas and there is not one person in my family who wants to answer the door to him either.

I know he'll think I'm doing this to hurt him but, even though I hope it might be a kick up the backside for him to make him realise what he's done, I'm not doing this to punish him. Every day I get to see my ds grow up whilst my exh misses out is hopefully enough punishment and caused totally by himself for leaving us.

Should I stick to my guns and risk upsetting my exh as his mother isn't pushing me to let him have his way, or should I give in just in case he tries to use it against me saying I'm stopping him from seeing his ds (especially as Christmas day falls on a Saturday)?

[WhyHavePets]

He isn't demanding equal rights, he is asking to see his child one day per week - not exactly high end as far as demanding exs go!

[MsHighwater]

Trilobite - not really the point, though, is it?

[piscesmoon]

Once you have a DC together you put your DC first-whatever it takes -you do it. Rule one is not to use the poor DC as a pawn in the fight.

[Marissa1984]

whenever he wants a visit it is a demand with no room for compromise, if I dare to say it's not convenient for a totally justified reason and have previously asked for a different time or day when his shifts were easier to work around, or even if I don't reply to his texts quick enough, he immediately started screaming abuse and threats and said he'll take me to court, he's threatened to call social services on me for no reason but just to cause trouble and to spite me when he knows full well ds is looked after and my health visitor said on all visits that she had no concerns, last time he was pretending that he was filling in a contact order because he allowed me only 8 minutes to reply to a text when I was changing ds's nappy and about to feed him.

I can be amicable for ds's sake as much as it is very painful, but he can't and feels his family are being disloyal to him by supporting me.

I had gotten to the stage where I was happier and we were amicable, then it all blew up when I visited my in-laws after being invited and he threw his toys out of the pram and decided to get his friend to join him in being vile and abusive to me just for the hell of it, and possibly had something to do with how much they had drunk that day. He even had the nerve to phone his mother and scream down the phone at her for inviting me to stay with her!

All I want is to get on with my life and be happy again and have the opportunity to get myself and my ds into some sort of routine and my exh goes out of his way to ruin everything just to spite me without any provocation. I don't want to argue with him but all he wants to do is fight. This is why I asked him to keep contact by text message only and only for the sake of arranging visits.

[gillybean2]

Keep the text messages. Write a diary of the events (date/time/who was there/what was said). If he does take you to court you may need to refer to it. Include everything, including your response, so it can be seen it is full and acurate.

You are both angry, but you don't have to lie there like a doormat and take his behaviour. If he or a friend of his is harassing you, and you can prove it with the text messages etc, then go to the police and get it logged.

If he threatens you with court then tell him to go ahead, because court will suggest mediation and try and get the two of you talking about it before they order anything. And it will take months, probably years, before anything happens that way. So call his bluff and tell him to go ahead.

And if he continues to be like this then tell him you will need to use a third party for contact etc because of his harassing behaviour, which will make it even more difficult for him to see his ds.
Yes he may be angry and frustrated at the lack of contact and having to do it your way, but that doesn't give him the right to harass you.

Stand up for yourself, separate out the relationship with your ds and yourself, and get some councelling and try and get him to agree to mediation. Afte rall that's what court are going to want to see anyhow. And how serious is he if he can't agree to that.

[SMummyS]

mathanxiety we have pictures here of most occassions, but none of xmas or birthdays on any year.

Her mum told her that she has never seen her dad on xmas day or her birthdays. This year will be the first for both!!

[piscesmoon]

For the sake of the DS, you both need outside help to mediate.

[Wilkoa]

Just wanted to say I completely understand where you are coming from. My DH dumped me on the phone 6 days before I had our DS. And yes, I read all the comments now saying that once its over you need to get on and ensure DH has a good relationship with his son.

However - back in the real world - its more important right now that you get yourself sorted as you are his main carer and if that means he doesn't see him on Xmas day then your ex will just have to live with that. It's all about setting healthy boundaries now and not getting dragged into arguements. Also, its still 8 weeks away, I would probably just make up your mind closer to the time.

Its not fair that your family have to get upset on Christmas day either just so your ex can see his son.

This isn't about using DS as a pawn, this is about his mum getting back on her feet so she can focus on DS and look to building some kind of business relationship with ex in future. It's sooooo soon right now. Look after yourself.

[twilight3]

OP, you start on the wrong basis. You talk about "letting" your ex see your son, how would you feel if he decided that he doesn't "let" you put those beautiful green dungarees that you love on the baby because he thinks they look horrible (just an -probably bad- example).

Talk with him and leave both your mothers out of it. Your son doesn't belong to you and it seems to me that your ex has nto left both of you, just you, he wants to spend time with his son.

It's still raw and it's difficult, but it's equally difficult to only see your child once a week. Get over yourself and share christmas.

Then, like someone else said, get a calendar and set things in stone.

Good luck with it all...

[HappyMummyOfOne]

I agree with Twilight, theres no "letting" your ex see his son - its his right as much as its yours. Turn the tables, would you be happy with the access arrangement you are proposing? I sincerely doubt it.

This is about the child not you, both parents are equal. You need to take your own feelings out of the equation otherwise your child will grow up with a lot of negative feelings and the associated problems that brings.

At the end of the day you choose to have a child with your ex, you therefore thought he would make a good dad - the fact that you are no longer a couple doesnt change that.

[mathanxiety]

I disagree about him being a good dad. He has shown himself to be irresponsible and self centered. And horning in on Christmas Day smacks of entitlement and a desire to be upsetting.

[ChocHobNob]

No one said he was a good dad, did they? They said the OP must have thought he would MAKE a good dad.

Why if a Dad wants to see their child at Christmas is it to cause hurt but when a Mum does, it's genuine? There are many hours in the day. Surely they can be shared.

OP you don't like your ex dictating about contact, but you decided he cannot see your child for 3 days over Christmas by making plans in advance which would impact on him too.

You need to get something sorted properly with regards to contact and he needs to get his working hours in advance so contact can e planned better.

I also agree with regards to the whole "letting" him see his own child thing. It's not the right way to
Look at it in my opinion.

[GrizzlyBare]

I think that a child should have access to both parents in an ideal world, but this sounds far from ideal.

This man has been vile and abusive, tried to control his ex-partner by making threats about court and social services, and even his mother doesn't support his behaviour. I can't see that the child will benefit from having such a hostile environment around him.

It would be nice if both parents could work to make things more pleasant for him but the father clearly isn't willing to take part in this. It's distressing for the OP and that can only have a negative impact on the child in the long term.

I think you need to offer your son as much consistency as possible and if that means that he ends up with you most of the time, so be it. It's not fair on the child to have their expectations dashed just to meet the father's wishes or to meet an arbitrary balance of access.

FWIW OP, I wouldn't blame you at all if you made decisions which meant that it would be more difficult for your ex to make sudden demands. Several of my friends have done this and it's improved matters immensely for both the children and mother.

[WhyHavePets]

Just been thinking about this, am I right that you only split up 6 weeks ago?

In which case, this split is very new, how is it possible that you have had reason to rearrange contact on several occasions already? If he is only having saturdays then that is 6 contacts max, you indicate that you have rearranged several of those - or attempted to. Do you not think that this behaviour is, in itself, unreasonable? And, given this behaviour, it is not surprising that your ex is getting a bit precious about christmas?

Also you say that his mother has never met your son but you also say that you went to stay with her...

It seems to me that there has been a bit of game playing and bad behaviour on both sides, your ex is behaving like an arse by threatening court etc but it sounds like you may well be giving him reason to be considering this option. I agree with above posters who say that you need to get yourself straight but this has to happen alongside doing the best thing for your child.

I do feel for you, breaking up is hard

[mathanxiety]

The DS is only 10 weeks old, so I doubt if the dad has been having him for every Saturday for the last ten weeks. I don't think it's unreasonable to have what is basically a very young baby close to his mum most of the time in the early months, especially if she is bfing or trying to get a routine in place.

I do think it's incredibly unreasonable for this man to be threatening to have the baby taken away, getting the courts involved, etc., when the baby is so young and needs his mother more than his dad, and the mother doesn't need this kind of gadfly biting at her and causing stress. This man is treating his child like a piece of property, like some people fight over the big tv or the xbox.

A man who threatens like this is a nasty piece of work. That's why it's so important to get to a solicitor and hammer out an agreement, and get there before he decides to go this route -- however, I think he sounds like someone who enjoys the opportunity this fight over access affords him to throw his weight around, and probably the last thing he wants is to have things settled in such a way that he can't act the bully.

[WhyHavePets]

Lol, you have an interesting take on things mathanxiety. Have you been through a bad break up yourself?

The important part of the point was that, of the very few contacts, the op has rearranged several.

[prettyfly1]

Op I think you really need to suggest mediation for you and your partner. Your op gives the impression that in a short space of time you have changed, or asked to change the arrangements, and that you feel your son is YOURS. I understand how angry you must be right now but your son is equally his whether either of you like it or not and you must learn to live together. I have been on both sides of the coin, angry single mum and partner of an angry dad whose rights as a parent are considered less purely on the basis of his gender. If your ex wants to threaten court, give it to him, get access set in stone then work to be polite and accomodating where possible.

To the people who suggested moving away - OMG. How dare you suggest that the mother has the right to take a child away so she can be happier. Shocking.

[mathanxiety]

I have indeed been through a bad breakup, with a man who had a mahoosive sense of entitlement (skipping lightly over the implications of the LOL in your post), and when this sort of man is involved in an argument over visitation, it is never because the best interest of the child is foremost in his heart.

WhyHavePets -- There is no indication at all in the OP or in any of Marissa's subsequent posts that any visits have been rearranged. She has said that when she objected to the time of any visits this man demanded he threatened her with court action, etc., crying abuse, and had his friends send her vile messages when he visited his mum with the baby. There have apparently been several visits up to now with Marissa and her Ex both present and they have gone so badly and have been so stressful that she has agreed that he can take the baby out somewhere alone instead. Please look again at her post of 2 Nov, 00:17:31.

'I agreed to decide on a pick up and drop off time at a neutral location as of next week and have given him a time slot for this saturday, but I pointed out we needed to make arrangements for Christmas.

"He says Christmas Day (also his birthday) is his only day off and he wants to see our ds then, however as I was so looking forward to the 3 of us spending it as a family which now won't be happening I am reluctant to allow him this as I am finding his visits very upsetting ..."
This is where they stand vis a vis Christmas. There had been no prior arrangement about Christmas except in the event of the three of them being together as a family unit with Marissa and the Ex reunited. That train has left the station. Marissa has made tentative arrangements for Christmas with her mother, away from her home. The Ex is demanding to see the baby at Christmas, as it is on a Saturday this year. As has been pointed out, it will always be his birthday that day and that shouldn't figure into it.

[prettyfly1]

Which is exactly why the OP needs to get her bottom to a lawyer and sort out formal access arrangements.

[piscesmoon]

You really do need help with mediation-you can't dump all the anger and adult problems on a baby.He has the right to 2 loving parents-they don't have to get on, but they have to have a working arrangement.

[Marissa1984]

Thank you mathanxiety, I postponed one visit until the next day (because he was getting aggressive towards me and I felt it best that rather than turn up and us argue we should have some time to cool down, obviously this was with my ds's best interests at heart and caused little disruption for my exh anyway) and at the time he was having several visits a week, it is only since his shifts have changed as of last week that saturday is the only day he can visit. I had to work his visits around his shifts which were always changing and around doctors and hospital appointments for ds and at the same time I had relatives and friends wanting to visit ds and did my best to make sure that when exh was available to visit that we were at home alone for him. It did mean asking to re-arrange or postpone visits but as I said I only did this once because he would not allow any compromise and became aggressive, and with threatening to call social services in particular I was worried and upset and just did whatever he wanted. And yes I am bfing and trying to get a routine in place. And I do feel like my exh is bullying me over access.

I have allowed every other visit he has requested/demanded as he does not allow compromise and it is easier to just give him what he wants every single time than to argue which makes him angry and upsets me. He is a very controlling person and to avoid confrontation I have always given in to him as he can get very aggressive.

He may have only left me and not ds however his behaviour seems like he only wants contact with him just to get to me. As ds is so young and bfing I have expressed milk so exh can feed him and so I don't have to be with him for his visits, I wanted him to be involved in ds's upbringing even if all he can do is change nappies and bottle feed him - any ideas what else he can do to be involved??? Throughout my pregnancy he complained of people coming up to me fussing over me as he was jealous of the attention I was getting, and I tried to involve him by having him go to my scans, however he used excuses to get out of my parent education class and in the end I told him I had invited him so that he would be involved and said if he didn't want to go to just say so instead of making up excuses. He told me he thought he would get bored! I actually found it very useful and interesting and was very upset and embarrassed that every other pregnant woman had their partner with them and I had my mum. Even tried getting him to set up ds's nursery, saying I couldn't paint it myself because of paint fumes etc. and he started it but got bored and I had to get a friend to help me finish it. I have asked him at times if he would like to change ds's nappy - not a nice task I know (but sod it I have to do it all the time!), but if I'm bfing he can't feed him so I thought it would be a way to get him involved. He's turned that down numerous times too. It's like he doesn't want to be involved. And don't even get me started about money as he hasn't given me a penny since a week before ds was born and I have contacted the CSA as he is so unreliable with money. He's quite happy to visit ds but doesn't seem to want to do anything useful or take a proper role in hs upbringing. In fact on one visit he arrived 15 mins late then rushed off after 40 minutes to go visit his friends, and from 30 minutes after he left I spent the rest of the day and the following day trying to contact him for him to visit again and he ignored my calls and texts, I even got a friend to contact him on my behalf and he ignored them too so missed out on a visit, yet I made sure I was at home by the time I told him I could be, on a day when he was not working at all, waiting for him to arrive.

Perhaps me saying I'm "letting" him see his child is a bad choice of words, I'm sure you understand what I mean.

I have contacted him offering for him to collect ds from the end of my mum's street to take him for an hr or so Christmas day, and as it is he didn't even bother to tell me whether he was happy about it or not and has just tried to start an argument over something else.

Guess I will be looking for a solicitor now.

[Marissa1984]

whyhavepets "Also you say that his mother has never met your son but you also say that you went to stay with her..." ???

I took ds to meet exh's family, his mother, sisters, nieces and nephews, and I went because I was invited, not sure where the confusion is?

And when I say "letting" him see ds I merely mean that I'm not trying to be difficult or trying to stop him from seeing him, if he asks for a visit I agree to it, perhaps "agreeing" is a better choice of words than "letting".

[mathanxiety]

Marissa you are dealing with a First Class Narcissist. His jealousy about your pregnancy and his refusal to accept that he would now play second fiddle to the baby (resulting in his refusal to attend the babycare classes) have made him very angry.

Do you see any parallels in the jealousy written about here?

Take a look at this site and see if you recognise him. A narcissist will often have a huge crisis when a baby is born. They cannot stand having the attention diverted from them -- he's even angry with his mother for paying attention to you and the baby.

[WhyHavePets]

You are right math, the lol was uncalled for, sorry

What I was driving at is that you seem to be seeing a lot in these posts that I simply don't see and wondered if you were projecting - of course I could have been a grown up and just said that!

Your last post makes me think I have missed something though, where does the op mention him being jealous about the pg? I am off to read her posts again and see what I have missed!

[Curiousmama]

It's never easy dealing with someone who isn't mature is it?

Hope you get a solicitor's appointment very soon as this sounds the only solution what with him being an arse and all.