Do I have to let ex see his son on Christmas Day?

[Marissa1984]

I am on maternity leave but my exh is a chef working long shifts and with only one guaranteed day off each week - Saturday. I am keeping contact via text messages only and I agreed to decide on a pick up and drop off time at a neutral location as of next week and have given him a time slot for this saturday, but I pointed out we needed to make arrangements for Christmas.

He says Christmas Day (also his birthday) is his only day off and he wants to see our ds then, however as I was so looking forward to the 3 of us spending it as a family which now won't be happening I am reluctant to allow him this as I am finding his visits very upsetting as he only left 6 weeks ago when ds was just 4 weeks old and I don't want my day ruined by seeing him, and I don't want ds to pick up on my emotions and end up having his day ruined too. I know he is too young to realise what Christmas is but his first Christmas means a lot to me.

When I told him I had already said that Christmas day was a no no he got funny with me then involved his mother as he claimed I had told her he could see ds Christmas day, and I had explained to him that I had wanted to if we were getting back together, but not now as we're not. I explained his behaviour over the past 6 months to his mother and she backed off saying she will make him take responsibility and support both of us (ner ner!!!)

I have arranged for me and ds to stay with my mum from Christmas Eve until Boxing Day, and she has made it very clear my exh is not welcome, as have all of my family. We all live in the same town so it's not like we're far away, but I can't even contemplate seeing my exh's face over Christmas and there is not one person in my family who wants to answer the door to him either.

I know he'll think I'm doing this to hurt him but, even though I hope it might be a kick up the backside for him to make him realise what he's done, I'm not doing this to punish him. Every day I get to see my ds grow up whilst my exh misses out is hopefully enough punishment and caused totally by himself for leaving us.

Should I stick to my guns and risk upsetting my exh as his mother isn't pushing me to let him have his way, or should I give in just in case he tries to use it against me saying I'm stopping him from seeing his ds (especially as Christmas day falls on a Saturday)?

[justonemorethen]

Can I add that this Christmas will be relevant next Christmas too.
Whatever you do this year will be next's years issue so consider a longer term plan.

I'd suggest letting him come for an hour just to get it over with.Then you can at least say you've done your bit and if it doesn't work that's his problem.If it's his birthday and day off and he likes a drink he'd surely be happy to leave it at that and go off with his mates?

Not easy but usually the easy option isn't the best way to do anything is it.

[nappyaddict]

If him coming to your mums isn't an option could he take DS to his for an hour or two?

[MsHighwater]

mathanxiety, a court might see things similarly or it might not. Either way, unlike you, the court would at least listen to all the facts and both sides of the story before reaching a conclusion, especially when the repercussions could be lifelong for the child.

[mathanxiety]

IMO there are very good reasons to believe that a relationship with this [particular man would really screw the child up for a long time. He's an alcoholic, or heading there fast, with a high level of hostility towards the baby's mother and is probably very jealous of the baby. I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for respectful communication from this man with a view to facilitating good relationships.

[MsHighwater]

racetobed and mathanxieyt, imo you are both wrong. The child has rights and it is this that might mean things are more likely to go in the mother's favour in a situation like this, especially if the child is exclusively breastfed.

That apart, though, the starting point should be that the child has a right to a relationship with both parents unless there are very good reasons for it to be otherwise. It is up to all the adults around the child to respect and facilitate that.

[mathanxiety]

Hear hear Racetobed. Tis baloney.

[racetobed]

Phipps "You have no more rights than your ex." Wtf?

We are talking about a 10 week old baby, who could well be exclusively breastfed.

The mother has plenty more rights than the father when the child is so young imo. Given that the baby will only be around 18 weeks on Xmas Day, the mother still has more rights then.

I'm so tired of women championing father's rights above the well being of tiny babies who are only weeks out of the mother's womb. I would understand if we were talking about a 2 year old who had a strong attachment to her father, but we're not.

[mathanxiety]

That is the whole issue as far as I'm concerned, Marissa, and for this kind of question in general ('it's ... never that the dad may actually miss his children') -- if you care about your baby, why pack your things and leave when the baby is a month old? Why refuse to pay for the things the baby needs? It seems to me there's a lot of take and no give here by this man.

Marissa, I hope you'll have a good Christmas and hope his mum will talk him into accepting your reasonable invitation for a few hours. She seems to be a reasonable person and I would be inclined to rope her into trying to talk to him.

The drinking is a serious problem from your description, and I hope the baby will not be in a car with him, ever. If he's descending into alcoholism then it's possible he will never have any sort of good relationship with his son -- his loss, and very sad for the baby.

[Marissa1984]

SMummyS that's a bit like asking a battered wife why she would stay with/go back to a violent husband though really, isn't it? The answer is I don't really know, I guess I thought he might change, and his behaviour had drastically improved over the years but went downhill during my pregnancy. For the first 4 months of my pregnancy and a long period before that he seemed happy and relatively calm, certainly a lot better than in the past. At the end of the day I loved him warts and all, he may not be a nice person but they say you can't help who you fall in love with.

How am I making all the decisions? I have agreed to everything he wants, he's had all the visits he wants, my issue over Christmas Day is the only thing I felt strongly enough about to put my foot down, and as I said earlier I have now contacted him with regards to him seeing ds for an hr or so on Christmas Day anyway.

I think it's not always about how the mother feels, it's more about how the person left with the child feels, whether that is the mother or the father, is it not?

And if he was worried about missing out then why did he leave when ds was only 4 weeks old? Essentially it appears he left as he can't handle responsibility and doesn't wan't to grow up, and, as mathanxiety has mentioned narcissism, it does appear that he is a narcissist.

Perhaps I should also mention that on one occasion he had 2 days off work and spent one day sitting in coffee shops and pubs all day then went round a friend's, got drunk and returned in the early hours of the morning, then had to disappear again the next day for several hours to go drinking again. Then when having a week off work to spend time as a family he ended up behaving the same, using the time as an opportunity to see all his friends and go drinking till the early hours and often not coming home.

Doesn't seem to me like he's really that bothered about spending time with ds. It feels like I'm doing all the hard work and he thinks by seeing ds occasionally that makes him a good dad. I'm concerned he will get bored of visiting and eventually stop coming as it seems we get in the way of his lifestyle. He plays the sensible responsible parent when he has a visit yet spends the rest of his time drinking till he passes out pretty much every day, he's even started drinking during lunch breaks and between split shifts now. By leaving us it enables him to carry out this lifestyle even more so than when he was with us, as he doesn't have anyone waiting for him to get home or asking him not to behave like this. So really he's having his cake and eating it right?

[SMummyS]

Without sounding harsh if he was like this before you was pregnant why did you decide to have a child with him?? Surely you would know that no matter what happened with you two he would have equal parental rights with the child...

As a pp has said he's not asking for a 50/50 split he is asking for one day a week. If he did take you to court he would be granted that and prop more as your DS gets a bit older.

It seems to me that he's your son, you make all the decisions and your ex can jump!! It would appear to the courts if it got that far that you are being obstructive. He has given you 8 weeks notice of his only day of at Xmas time. That is adequate time to arrange him to have his DS for even a couple of hours!!

Why is it always about how the mother feels and never that the dad may actually miss his child!!!

[mathanxiety]

'Throughout my pregnancy he complained of people coming up to me fussing over me as he was jealous of the attention I was getting, and I tried to involve him by having him go to my scans, however he used excuses to get out of my parent education class and in the end I told him I had invited him so that he would be involved and said if he didn't want to go to just say so instead of making up excuses. He told me he thought he would get bored!'

WhyHavePats -- this is from a subsequent post.

Sorry about the second link -- another try

[Marissa1984]

mathanxiety that first link brought me to tears as there were several things which I can relate to. And i fact one of my exh's sisters even described him as a narcissist. He calls me a good mum when he's in a good mood but when he's not he says I'm a bad mum, not that he has anything to back that up with. He has issues with money, always has done. Trying to reach an agreement as to how much he could afford to contribute towards our rent and bills has always been a nightmare, even when we come to an agreement he fail to pay up and makes excuses as to why he can't, even just doesn't pay and waits for me to remind him (I presumed this was in the hope that I would forget about it!).

He has always started arguments about the cleanliness and tidiness of our home, to the point where my own mum has come to visit me and done housework for me saying she wanted to prevent him from having a go at me, and this was going on before I was pregnant. We were both working full time and he decided that as I am a woman it is my job to do all the housework, to which I told him on many occasions that if that was what he wanted then he should bring in all the money and I should quit work! I am quite happy to do it all myself if I am not working as well, and he rarely lifted a finger to help around the house, before during and after pregnancy. He would argue with me when I was earning less than him that I wasn't bringing in enough money, yet when I was earning more than him he complained about that, even saying that once ds was born I should go back to work and let him be a house husband!

Fortunately, unlike the woman in your link, I have loving and supportive parents who are very good to me and my in-laws have also been very supportive and good to me. I didn't always get on with the m-i-l, didn't actually know why she disliked me, I believe it may have been down to him telling lies about me and turning everything round to make me out to be in the wrong when it was actually him, and I believe she now realises this as there is no animosity between us any more.

Unfortunately the second link didn't work.

whyhavepets I have made several subsequent posts

[Curiousmama]

It's never easy dealing with someone who isn't mature is it?

Hope you get a solicitor's appointment very soon as this sounds the only solution what with him being an arse and all.

[WhyHavePets]

You are right math, the lol was uncalled for, sorry

What I was driving at is that you seem to be seeing a lot in these posts that I simply don't see and wondered if you were projecting - of course I could have been a grown up and just said that!

Your last post makes me think I have missed something though, where does the op mention him being jealous about the pg? I am off to read her posts again and see what I have missed!

[mathanxiety]

Marissa you are dealing with a First Class Narcissist. His jealousy about your pregnancy and his refusal to accept that he would now play second fiddle to the baby (resulting in his refusal to attend the babycare classes) have made him very angry.

Do you see any parallels in the jealousy written about here?

Take a look at this site and see if you recognise him. A narcissist will often have a huge crisis when a baby is born. They cannot stand having the attention diverted from them -- he's even angry with his mother for paying attention to you and the baby.

[Marissa1984]

whyhavepets "Also you say that his mother has never met your son but you also say that you went to stay with her..." ???

I took ds to meet exh's family, his mother, sisters, nieces and nephews, and I went because I was invited, not sure where the confusion is?

And when I say "letting" him see ds I merely mean that I'm not trying to be difficult or trying to stop him from seeing him, if he asks for a visit I agree to it, perhaps "agreeing" is a better choice of words than "letting".

[Marissa1984]

Thank you mathanxiety, I postponed one visit until the next day (because he was getting aggressive towards me and I felt it best that rather than turn up and us argue we should have some time to cool down, obviously this was with my ds's best interests at heart and caused little disruption for my exh anyway) and at the time he was having several visits a week, it is only since his shifts have changed as of last week that saturday is the only day he can visit. I had to work his visits around his shifts which were always changing and around doctors and hospital appointments for ds and at the same time I had relatives and friends wanting to visit ds and did my best to make sure that when exh was available to visit that we were at home alone for him. It did mean asking to re-arrange or postpone visits but as I said I only did this once because he would not allow any compromise and became aggressive, and with threatening to call social services in particular I was worried and upset and just did whatever he wanted. And yes I am bfing and trying to get a routine in place. And I do feel like my exh is bullying me over access.

I have allowed every other visit he has requested/demanded as he does not allow compromise and it is easier to just give him what he wants every single time than to argue which makes him angry and upsets me. He is a very controlling person and to avoid confrontation I have always given in to him as he can get very aggressive.

He may have only left me and not ds however his behaviour seems like he only wants contact with him just to get to me. As ds is so young and bfing I have expressed milk so exh can feed him and so I don't have to be with him for his visits, I wanted him to be involved in ds's upbringing even if all he can do is change nappies and bottle feed him - any ideas what else he can do to be involved??? Throughout my pregnancy he complained of people coming up to me fussing over me as he was jealous of the attention I was getting, and I tried to involve him by having him go to my scans, however he used excuses to get out of my parent education class and in the end I told him I had invited him so that he would be involved and said if he didn't want to go to just say so instead of making up excuses. He told me he thought he would get bored! I actually found it very useful and interesting and was very upset and embarrassed that every other pregnant woman had their partner with them and I had my mum. Even tried getting him to set up ds's nursery, saying I couldn't paint it myself because of paint fumes etc. and he started it but got bored and I had to get a friend to help me finish it. I have asked him at times if he would like to change ds's nappy - not a nice task I know (but sod it I have to do it all the time!), but if I'm bfing he can't feed him so I thought it would be a way to get him involved. He's turned that down numerous times too. It's like he doesn't want to be involved. And don't even get me started about money as he hasn't given me a penny since a week before ds was born and I have contacted the CSA as he is so unreliable with money. He's quite happy to visit ds but doesn't seem to want to do anything useful or take a proper role in hs upbringing. In fact on one visit he arrived 15 mins late then rushed off after 40 minutes to go visit his friends, and from 30 minutes after he left I spent the rest of the day and the following day trying to contact him for him to visit again and he ignored my calls and texts, I even got a friend to contact him on my behalf and he ignored them too so missed out on a visit, yet I made sure I was at home by the time I told him I could be, on a day when he was not working at all, waiting for him to arrive.

Perhaps me saying I'm "letting" him see his child is a bad choice of words, I'm sure you understand what I mean.

I have contacted him offering for him to collect ds from the end of my mum's street to take him for an hr or so Christmas day, and as it is he didn't even bother to tell me whether he was happy about it or not and has just tried to start an argument over something else.

Guess I will be looking for a solicitor now.

[piscesmoon]

You really do need help with mediation-you can't dump all the anger and adult problems on a baby.He has the right to 2 loving parents-they don't have to get on, but they have to have a working arrangement.

[prettyfly1]

Which is exactly why the OP needs to get her bottom to a lawyer and sort out formal access arrangements.

[mathanxiety]

I have indeed been through a bad breakup, with a man who had a mahoosive sense of entitlement (skipping lightly over the implications of the LOL in your post), and when this sort of man is involved in an argument over visitation, it is never because the best interest of the child is foremost in his heart.

WhyHavePets -- There is no indication at all in the OP or in any of Marissa's subsequent posts that any visits have been rearranged. She has said that when she objected to the time of any visits this man demanded he threatened her with court action, etc., crying abuse, and had his friends send her vile messages when he visited his mum with the baby. There have apparently been several visits up to now with Marissa and her Ex both present and they have gone so badly and have been so stressful that she has agreed that he can take the baby out somewhere alone instead. Please look again at her post of 2 Nov, 00:17:31.

'I agreed to decide on a pick up and drop off time at a neutral location as of next week and have given him a time slot for this saturday, but I pointed out we needed to make arrangements for Christmas.

"He says Christmas Day (also his birthday) is his only day off and he wants to see our ds then, however as I was so looking forward to the 3 of us spending it as a family which now won't be happening I am reluctant to allow him this as I am finding his visits very upsetting ..."
This is where they stand vis a vis Christmas. There had been no prior arrangement about Christmas except in the event of the three of them being together as a family unit with Marissa and the Ex reunited. That train has left the station. Marissa has made tentative arrangements for Christmas with her mother, away from her home. The Ex is demanding to see the baby at Christmas, as it is on a Saturday this year. As has been pointed out, it will always be his birthday that day and that shouldn't figure into it.

[prettyfly1]

Op I think you really need to suggest mediation for you and your partner. Your op gives the impression that in a short space of time you have changed, or asked to change the arrangements, and that you feel your son is YOURS. I understand how angry you must be right now but your son is equally his whether either of you like it or not and you must learn to live together. I have been on both sides of the coin, angry single mum and partner of an angry dad whose rights as a parent are considered less purely on the basis of his gender. If your ex wants to threaten court, give it to him, get access set in stone then work to be polite and accomodating where possible.

To the people who suggested moving away - OMG. How dare you suggest that the mother has the right to take a child away so she can be happier. Shocking.

[WhyHavePets]

Lol, you have an interesting take on things mathanxiety. Have you been through a bad break up yourself?

The important part of the point was that, of the very few contacts, the op has rearranged several.

[mathanxiety]

The DS is only 10 weeks old, so I doubt if the dad has been having him for every Saturday for the last ten weeks. I don't think it's unreasonable to have what is basically a very young baby close to his mum most of the time in the early months, especially if she is bfing or trying to get a routine in place.

I do think it's incredibly unreasonable for this man to be threatening to have the baby taken away, getting the courts involved, etc., when the baby is so young and needs his mother more than his dad, and the mother doesn't need this kind of gadfly biting at her and causing stress. This man is treating his child like a piece of property, like some people fight over the big tv or the xbox.

A man who threatens like this is a nasty piece of work. That's why it's so important to get to a solicitor and hammer out an agreement, and get there before he decides to go this route -- however, I think he sounds like someone who enjoys the opportunity this fight over access affords him to throw his weight around, and probably the last thing he wants is to have things settled in such a way that he can't act the bully.

[WhyHavePets]

Just been thinking about this, am I right that you only split up 6 weeks ago?

In which case, this split is very new, how is it possible that you have had reason to rearrange contact on several occasions already? If he is only having saturdays then that is 6 contacts max, you indicate that you have rearranged several of those - or attempted to. Do you not think that this behaviour is, in itself, unreasonable? And, given this behaviour, it is not surprising that your ex is getting a bit precious about christmas?

Also you say that his mother has never met your son but you also say that you went to stay with her...

It seems to me that there has been a bit of game playing and bad behaviour on both sides, your ex is behaving like an arse by threatening court etc but it sounds like you may well be giving him reason to be considering this option. I agree with above posters who say that you need to get yourself straight but this has to happen alongside doing the best thing for your child.

I do feel for you, breaking up is hard

[GrizzlyBare]

I think that a child should have access to both parents in an ideal world, but this sounds far from ideal.

This man has been vile and abusive, tried to control his ex-partner by making threats about court and social services, and even his mother doesn't support his behaviour. I can't see that the child will benefit from having such a hostile environment around him.

It would be nice if both parents could work to make things more pleasant for him but the father clearly isn't willing to take part in this. It's distressing for the OP and that can only have a negative impact on the child in the long term.

I think you need to offer your son as much consistency as possible and if that means that he ends up with you most of the time, so be it. It's not fair on the child to have their expectations dashed just to meet the father's wishes or to meet an arbitrary balance of access.

FWIW OP, I wouldn't blame you at all if you made decisions which meant that it would be more difficult for your ex to make sudden demands. Several of my friends have done this and it's improved matters immensely for both the children and mother.