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New Secondary Schools for Richmond 4

1000 replies

BayJay2 · 09/11/2012 21:26

Welcome. This is the fourth (or perhaps fifth) in a series of threads about Richmond Secondary Schools.

The discussion was originally triggered by Richmond council's publication of its Education White Paper in February 2011. It started with two parallel threads here and here.

In November 2011 the most active of the original two threads reached 1000 messages (the maximum allowed) so we continued the conversation here.

That thread filled up in May 2012, and was continued here.

It's now November 2012, and once again we're at the start of a new thread ....

OP posts:
muminlondon2 · 19/12/2012 11:05

About 35% of the primary school places in Richmond are at voluntary aided schools

ryelrom, that's just the Richmond side of the river but it's more like 40% on the Twickenham side. One interesting local fact is that in the mid-19th century Lord Russell, president of the British and Foreign Schools Society, who lived in Pembroke lodge, gave his support to a couple of new non-denominational schools in Richmond/Ham, one of which bears his name. The organisation was set up to counterbalance the National Society which promoted Anglican schools.

Apologies if ChrisSquire has given this link before but here is a really informative history of schools in England. A few key moments:

1870 - the Act 'could have begun to separate church and state, as was happening in other countries' but with generous government funds for new buildings [about 50%] of cost, within 15 years, the number of CofE schools rose from 6,382 to 11,864, and RC schools from 350 to 892. In the same period, the number of children attending church schools doubled to two million.

1902 - 'The 1870 Act had taken 28 days to debate. The 1902 Act took 59, and most of that time was spent on the religious clauses.

1936 - the raising of the school leaving age caused capacity problems: building grants of 50-75% could be made to church schools 'provided that religious instruction was given in accordance with the LEA's syllabus and that the teachers were employed, appointed and dismissed by the LEA ... as a result, the Church of England submitted proposals for 230 new schools, the Catholic Church for 289.'

1944 - collective worship and religious instruction made compulsory and distinction made between voluntary aided schools (50% of building and maintenance funded by state) and voluntary controlled schools (100%). 1/3 of of the 9,000 CofE schools opted for VA status, and all the RC and Jewish schools.

1959 - 75% of capital costs funded by state
1967 - 80%
1974 - 85%
2001 - 90%

BayJay2 · 19/12/2012 11:07

Lottie, for info there was quite a lot of discussion of VA school funding in this part of the thread. There's a fair amount of historical context which goes with the current funding structure.

OP posts:
muminlondon2 · 19/12/2012 13:25

BayJay, in that earlier thread you calculated that, considering most buildings were acquired and paid for many years ago, churches contribute no more than 0.7% to total costs in their schools.

I've been wondering if the Sir Harold Hood trust will help donate to the one-off refurbishment of St RR. In fact, could it have paid to buy the school outright? It has received some big donations in recent years since Lord True became a trustee - £3.3 million in 2007, £10 million in 2009. I can't see anything about where that money has gone.

muminlondon2 · 19/12/2012 14:45

The Charity Commission website does of course show income and exenditure for that charity. A few schools are beneficiaries including St Benedict's Ealing, not necessarily large amounts (£000s), about £500K in total per year. The £10 million was property in the deceased Sir Harold Hood's estate (not in Richmond).

ChrisSquire2 · 19/12/2012 15:27

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ChrisSquire2 · 19/12/2012 15:28

The Trust gives away c. half a million a year to these kinds of things:

Churches; Education; Homeless; Hospitals; Leprosy; Missionary; Nursing; Prisoners; Retreat Centre; Schools; Seminary; Vatican; and Youth

via a large number of smallish donations [i.e. below £10,000] which fill nearly 3 pages of their report.

muminlondon2 · 19/12/2012 16:06

Thanks Chris, didn't mean to imply £500k went to any single beneficiary. And I have no criticism of that charity.

It's just made me wonder how we've got to the point where churches expect buildings to be provided by a council for a school with exclusive admissions. The only reason Education Acts since 1870 have given increasingly generous funding to church schools was to expand provision quickly - it was never about choice because they were near monopoly providers in the first place. At the same time they tried but failed to impose conditions on that funding.

When was the last time a Catholic VA secondary was approved and funded in this way?

BayJay2 · 19/12/2012 18:58

"When was the last time a Catholic VA secondary was approved and funded in this way?"

I don't know the answer muminlondon, but the school census data has opening dates so you should be able to get a list of ones opened in the last few years from that.

OP posts:
muminlondon2 · 19/12/2012 21:25

I did have a look. Not many schools had dates but I'm fairly sure there have been but a handful of brand new Catholic schools since the 1960s, and the vast majority have been amalgamations of older schools or a boys section of an existing girls' school, and one or two ex-independent schools. So there isn't really a precedent. In a way it really does go back to a replacement for St Edward the Confessor.

A quick trawl through the Catholic Herald archive also suggested the original 1944 tripartite system, of grammars and sec mods and the ill-fated technical schools, was a real problem for Catholic schools in terms of size - the comprehensive system suited it better.

Heathclif · 19/12/2012 22:23

My spy in Surrey County Council, speaking from the accepted point of view in most Councils that creating faith schools does not meet need (because they discriminate against the most vulnerable in communities) commented that the most recent case of a "Catholic Zealot" delivering a Catholic School from public funds was in the North West?

muminlondon2 · 20/12/2012 08:04

If the 1990s then St Helens? Manchester? Since 2000 there have been more recent rebuilds wit cash from Building Schools for the Future and some controversial decisions on amalgamations or closures of comprehensives. Such school reorganisations can affect a whole town.

Heathclif · 20/12/2012 10:42

I think they were talking about something more recent but possibly primary. Anyway generally regarded dimly by Senior Mangers in Councils nationwide.

ChrisSquire2 · 20/12/2012 12:03

St Stephen's Primary School [St Margaret?s] which has hitherto (though it is a VA school) had an inclusive admission policy taking most of its intake from Orleans (was Infants now also a Primary) school is proposing to introduce:

. . Six foundation places: These will be allocated to children, one, or both of whose parents are active members who worship regularly at either St Stephens or another local Christian church. If foundation places are oversubscribed places will be allocated firstly to members of St Stephens and then according to geographical proximity . . Regular worship will be defined as church attendance at least twice per month in the past year and should be verified by a letter from a member of the clergy of the specified church. Those applying under the foundation place allocation should also submit a supplementary information form so that Governors may consider their application fully.

. . for this year only Year 3 applications will continue to be processed under a separate system, which continues to give priority to Orleans Primary School pupils.

The church is strongly evangelical with a large affluent youngish congregation. How many are local and wish to use the school, I don?t know.

muminlondon2 · 20/12/2012 12:44

Did a quick search for 'new Catholic primary school' and instead found another story about a Catholic school in an area where demographics have changed (Daily Mail alert!): [[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2174050/The-Catholic-primary-school-90-cent-pupils-Muslim.html
Birmingham primary school]]

I'm sure they like their school - but while the issue of ownership of buildings may be a complicated one, it doesn't need to have either a religious denomination or exclusive admissions policy now as clearly all their children are being admitted under criteria 7 and 8. And it certainly explains the overall percentage of 80% non-Catholic in Catholic schools.

muminlondon2 · 20/12/2012 13:13

Chris, it's only 10%, but a bit like the 'children of staff/governors'/founderse criteria which has been controversial under the Admissions Code. I looked at the other church primaries:

Queen?s: Distance is priority 6, no limit to foundation places
St Richard's: Distance is priority 6, no limit to foundation places
Archdeacon Cambridge: 70% foundation places within 2.5 km of the school
Bishop Perrin: 18 foundation places (60%)
Holy Trinity: Up to 30 foundation places (50%)
St Mary?s: 24 foundation places (27%)
St Mary?s and St Peter?s: church attendance in particular parishes prioritised over distance
St John the Baptist: link with infant school prioritised over church attendance
St Mary?s Hampton: no religious priority

All Catholic schools except St RR give priority to Catholics ? ?others? are last of up to 12 criteria.

Note that the primary schools admissions booklet does not give application and offer numbers, either in general or under the specific criteria. Which the secondary school brochure does, correctly in my opinion. An exclusive admissions criteria in some schools does not automatically make them popular.

jotwicken · 20/12/2012 15:54

Scott Naylor is the local councillor on Governing Board of St Stephen. I would have thought that he is aware of the concerns people have on primary places and foundation places.

ChrisSquire2 · 21/12/2012 11:26

Cllr Naylor represents Riverside ward, which is well served by 4 Primary schools: St Mary?s, Orleans, St Stephen?s and the Vineyard - and Orleans Park Secondary. His views are strongly and eccentrically conservative - he denounces liberals like me as ?marxists?! - and he probably supports the right of VA schools to use faith criteria.

I think it likely that the children getting the six foundation places at St Stephen?s would have got in on distance only anyway. My guess is a compromise between what those governors who wished to introduce more foundation places now that St Stephen?s is no longer linked to Orleans Infants? asked for and the wish of other governors that it should remain what it has probably been ever since it was opened in 1896 - a community school open to all.

muminlondon2 · 21/12/2012 12:45

Interesting local history! Queen's CofE primary started as a 'free school' in 1810 - did that mean not controlled by the church in those days?

ChrisSquire2 · 21/12/2012 13:00

No: it meant 'free at the point of consumption'. OED says:

?free school, n. . . From the mid-19th cent. onwards, it was sometimes argued that 'free (grammar) school' was a translation of post-classical Latin libera schola (grammaticalis), and that the word liber in this phrase must mean e.g. ?exempt from ecclesiastical control' rather than 'not charging fees?. In fact, in English sources the English phrase seems to antedate the Latin one . . Free schools might indeed charge fees to certain pupils, and in some cases the ideal of free education may have become purely theoretical.

  1. A school which provides teaching free of charge. Now chiefly hist. . . 1500 Deed Found. Lancaster Grammar Sch. in National Observer (1896) 3 Oct. 578 [The master shall be] a profound grammarian, keping a Fre Scole, teching..the childer unto the utmost profitt, nothing taking therefor. . . 1727 Stat. Bury Gramm. School (1863) , I have ordered my Free Schole of Bury to be free to all boys born in the parish..yet my intent is..not to debar [the masters] from that common priviledg in all Free Scholes of receiving presents, benevolences, gratuities from the scholars . .
  1. An independently run school based on the principle that children should be allowed to develop without the restrictions imposed by examinations, authority, and other features of traditional education.
1926 A. S. Neill Probl. Child xvi. 209 The Germans had a free school, rather like King Alfred School, in London. A school with co-education, much freedom, no punishments, no rewards . . ?

The recent politically charged sense has yet to get into the dictionnary.

BayJay4 · 21/12/2012 22:50

"His views are strongly and eccentrically conservative"
Obviously I didn't manage to convince everyone that adversarial politics wasn't the best way to get results Smile. Let's try and keep the personal stuff to a minimum shall we? There's enough of that on the RTT comment threads.

(p.s. My log-in was playing up today, hence the '4' in my username)

ChrisSquire2 · 22/12/2012 00:56

?Adversarial politics? is one thing: ?personal stuff? is another . .

It was adversarial politics that won Cllr Naylor his seat on a 14 % swing, thereby giving Cllr True the power to do what he has done. To ignore or despise that is to cut yourself from what makes the world go round in a liberal democracy. If winning an election didn?t give the winner some real power over resources [and thereby other people?s lives] no-one would bother to fight them.

I have no personal antagonism towards him - he beat us fair and square and it remains to be seen whether or not we can beat him in May 2014. That his world view is eccentric is well known to everyone involved in the public life of the borough and is therefore no more than fair comment.

Vince Cable?s constituency secretary once told me that it was reckoned that Twickenham has more ?nutters? - persons with eccentric world-views - than anywhere else in Britain. I have no idea if this claim is true or nor or even how one might decide. If it is, then Cllr Naylor must be the right man for the job.

BayJay4 · 22/12/2012 09:35

"To ignore or despise that"
Chris, I agree it can't be ignored, for the reasons you say. But I like to think of this thread as a relatively safe haven from all that. If local councillors or their supporters feel compelled to wade into the arena to defend reputations or strike back then we could end up with an RTT-style spat that wouldn't reflect well on anyone. So let's try and keep the genie in its bottle.

On that note, peace, goodwill and a happy Christmas to all on Mumsnet! Wine Brew Flowers. Xmas Smile

muminlondon2 · 02/01/2013 16:01

Happy new year Brew

Just picked up on this report about £8.6 million cut in central government grants to Richmond council for 2013-14. It's frustrating to see this when the council spent a similar amount on Clifden Road and there was £1 billion overspend on academies conversion nationally. It's important in that context that new and existing schools are successful. There may be cuts to other services unless the council can negotiate some more funding as they have frozen council tax for next year.

ChrisSquire2 · 03/01/2013 01:27

What the RTT report actually says is:

Following cuts of £8.6m to general Government grants, Richmond faces further significant cuts in funding over the next two years.

As no details are given it is unclear what this means without further investigation.

Heathclif · 03/01/2013 10:20

I don't want to stir any adversarial conflict but for the sake of clarity

I have had a chance to learn Councillor Naylor's views on the Catholic School in Clifden Road. He is a wholehearted supporter, believing Catholic Schools have a superior record of academic achievement and discipline. He also believes that our other schools will be greatly improved by the imposition of Gove's plans on curriculum, exams etc. (including the devaluing of the Religion and Ethics GCSE Hmm).

Councillor Naylor's Riverside ward has it's border in Clifden Road which for some time now, with Copthall, has been on the borders of several primary school catchments, depending where the bulge classes are. As we have discussed elsewhere it seems likely that we will be moving to a position where the same applies for secondary's (the roads have already moved out of the Waldegrave catchment). Councillor Chappell has shown a great deal more sensitivity towards parental concerns about school places. Councillor Salvoni has been quiet on the subject, possibly because she was reported, earlier in the year, to be moving to Cornwall.....

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