German Schools

[finknottle]

Get it off your chest

There are, as anywhere, good and bad aspects to the school system.

So if you want advice, help or an embittered rant - feel free.

On a postive note - anyone see the thread on Primary about security? I've just taken dd to kg and on the way back wanted to drop off a school library book ds2 has had since before Christmas and forgot again.
All I did is walk in, went to his classroom and left it on his PE kit so he'll see it at break.

No one worries unduly about security here. The caretaker has an office (all glass) outside the main building but he's rarely in it.

Is it only village schools? Looks so odd to me to have a school "locked down".

She wants me to think it all over (and come round to her point of view no doubt). It's a load of bollocks the whole thing. As I said, I do quite like the woman, she's alright but the system kills me. I have reached saturation point with it finks and keeping in mind all everyone has said about how year 3 is with all the testing etc there seems little point perservering with it. I just would like to leave it tidily IYSWIM not 6 weeks before end of term with a lot of hoo-ha and hassle with the authorities.

I have just wondered if I was upfront about ti and wrote to them saying why we had had to pull her out of school and that we would not be returning for year 3 but placing her in a school overseas , would they bother coming round and taking us to court and all the rest of it?

I agree with finknottle, if the head wants to enforce the silly rule that she already agreed upon being hard for the dc anyway, then do it for a few days and then call dd in sick - it would be a bit like 'told you so' to the head and she would maybe reconsider? Or then you could go for the 2nd doctors note (I am optimistic today aren't I - about the head reconsidering!)

Have you found out for sure if the other school will take her or not? Meaning the American one.

My 2 are tired out after school too and they go from 8:20 to 14:10 and we only live around the corner but it's a long day and no lunch break as such. I just could not imagine them managing a full day school like SSSandy's dd goes to.

well if you hear about any of these idiotic politicians who decided on enforcing these ganztagsschulen being run over by a black car, you'll know who is to blame!

I thought she could at least have made an exception till the end of term, don't you? What skin is it off her nose , I'd like to know and what is the Schulrat or whoever she answers to going to ever know or care about it?

American school very cagey which leads me to think the answer is no. Know families with dc there in year 2 and they tell me there are no places becoming free, no one to their knowledge is moving on

Oh, bad luck about the American one, it sounded good. I hate it when these politicians start. They have no idea - well no actually they have plenty of ideas but they don't have a clue how to put them into practice.

Our school is up in arms because the Erzieher are all walking out next year as the head wants to work with privatträger - so the school has nothing to organize, all the UEA, AG's etc will be run by an outside company. Well it doesn't bother me and it can only get better than it is but next year they want the 1st and 2nd year and sometimes also the 3rd year to be in one class together with 1 teacher and 1 erzieher. All I can say is thank goodness I'm leaving! Chaos.

Hmm, dunno.

The Schulamt must have stacks more stuff to do than get suspicious of foreigners taking children out. How would they check? Doubt that once you're out of the country they'd bother tbh, but officaldom may catch up on you, i.e. Abmeldung whatsits.

Yes, Y3 can be hell, but from what you've written about your d, she may thrive on it. Girls do better ime. A teacher here said the same thing to me recently, that the system is slanted towards girls & she's only noticed it since her s is now in Y3. The girls tend to be better organised, like the structure of the units & the variety of topics. I can see why that's the case as well as I can see why our boys found/find it hard. In s2's case, a lot of it is that he doesn't understand the German first time around and the class moves so fast.

Also, your d's class is nothing like a standard Y3 primary, or am I wrong? Much more creative...

You know her better of course, but if you pull her out now (and from a second school) - what then? It's such a huge step. If it's just for a year, Y4 won't be easier for her, worse imo - as it's actually easier than 3.

Have you found out what the Y3 set up is? Do they have this free play thing too? Or could she do homework/revising etc.?

I find putting THREE years together a bit weird.

Well thanks for your thoughts girls. I am not very receptive at the moment. I'll read your advice through tonight when it's less hot and I've digested the whole thing better. Dh is in Mainz all week not that he is a lot of help when he is here either but I need to talk to someone about it. My family can't comprehend the system at all and I don't like to discuss it with German friends because it sounds like you're indirectly criticising them, doesn't it, if you criticise the system that educated them?

Knew you could rely on me to revive the German schools thread though, didn't you?!

It's not at all like a standard primary finks which is why I like it. There are things that don't work well and it isn't Mary Poppins-Lnad unfortuantely, so there are incidents and things I'd rather didn't go on but the actual teaching and curriculum seems a lot more fun and there is a much higher emphasis on creativity and originality. It suits my dd so much better so really I feel this is the end of the line for us. It was stressful the whole thing right the waythrough but if this one hasn't worked out either, I think we should call it a day.

I can continue sending her to school after school in Berlin but we are stuck with the same system failures and I do think this was the best of the bunch. Luckily she seems unfazed about not returning, doesn't seem to mind that. You know what the next problem is though, it's all very well leaving one but you need to go somewhere else at least in the long run

What I do not understand is the fact that the time is not lessons or homework or an organised activity. The primary here is a (voluntary) Ganztagsschule. The pupils have lunch/play till 2, homework 2-3 and then an AG from 3-4. The 1st years play from 3-4 most days but that's because they found last year that so many AGs a week were too much for them.

What you seem to have is just Betreuung so the schools/politicians can say they're being family-friendly by offering a cheaper alternative to the Hort.

I must go but want to say am so gutted for you that it's all flared up again. Taking her out of the country seems so extreme though - and for the whole family. You'd think that in one of Europe's major capitals you would be able to find a decent school, wouldn't you?

Hope my tales of woe about Y3 haven't terrified you into fleeing the country, millions of children do cope OK with it

ha ha, no don't feel guilty. I could have coped with year 3 at the school if the hours were not the problem.

The school you mean is an offene Ganztagsschule which has that flexibility, our is unfortuantely a gebundene Ganztagsschule which means they just have to be kept there on the premises for that amount of time. I think the idea behind these Ganztagsschulen, which they want to be the norm here longer term, is to enforce parents on benefits back into full-time employment (initially 1 Euro job things). I think that is the main thrust of it and the acceptable public face is to make it easier on parents who work full days because all children are in school for at least 8 hours a day. You can do an optional additional 3 hours on top of that (can you believe it? Frühhort and Späthort). Hopefully that doesn't become obligatory too or we'll be back to Victorian times and dc with no childhood at all.

That would solve alot of problems if they got rid of gebundeganztag and instead all schools were offene ganztags... the fact that the gebundene HAVE to keep the dc at school seems to mean they don't bother with much, just betreung. The Papageno school round the corner from here has offene and the dc sometimes leave early to go to Aikido which starts at 4pm, or I se ethem leave early to go to music lessons etc. The french Europa schule must let them out a bit earlier too as a couple of them at Aikido go there. All depends on the head I guess.

Have you figured out where you're going next term? You know the initial letter in the Schulheft was only 'til 2:30 wasn't it? Could you atleast go along with that for now?
Must go and get d from school, poor thing will be boiling hot.

the head has told me she has to stay there till 4. I think they can be a lot more flexible if they want but they don't want to be. Plenty of dc get picked up at 2 on various days, it depends on the class teacher and ours is not the nicest, although I do think she teaches well. She is not the easiest nature out there IYSWIM.

I sometimes pass the German-Spanish one in the mornings and they are all rocking in there unconcernedly around 9ish. No signs of haste or panic about getting to school on time. They're supposed to be 8-4 as well but they don't seem to get in a fret about it. Oh well, can't be helped now I think.

I'm still thinking I would prefer to tell the school straight what I mean to do and then de-register dd and I,leave before the new school years starts but if I have to I can just leave earlier, can't I? Will have to be sensible thogh and thinki t through with a clam mind tonight

Yes, think it through. Try and get as many opinions from friends or family if you can too. It always helps me when I get alot of different opinions.

How did you leave things with the head then this morning? Did you say you would have to think it over or is she expecting you to just do as she says?

Dd was so hot when I picked her up, she'd had a headache after the 1st lesson and she was sent down to sit in the shade in the playground and that's it. Still had a headache when I picked her up just after 2, don't know why they didn't phone me. Ds's class had been out in the sun for 1 hour doing sport, not very good in this heat, didn't bother us as ds is still at home with his rash. It's on his legs too, like a heat rash really and the apotheke gave me ebenol mild cortisone. Hope it helps. It's unbearable at the moment here in Mitte, no air just heat.

well I told her that I am not very open to this as she can see because of the past history and her health issues and what I see even now but that I need to let it all einsinken or whatever and think it through. Actually I didn't find it all that badw hen I first came out but after I'd been thinking about it for a while I started to feel annoyed at the attitude because they are totally disregarding the health issue and just being a pita basically for no good reason. But you will always feel like that here with the schools, won't you? It's just one thing after another tbh

Poor dd with the headache all day. I think the heat was too much for her and perhaps she isn't sleeping well with it either. Must bring the fan up out of the garage in fact.

The heat is overpowering, isn't it? Still they have promised thunderstorms for next week so it should all cool down.

spoke to dh on the phone and he is furious. Absolutely furious because he says the head is acting like a total a*se about the whole thing. He says it's very unfair on dd because if we have to take her out now 5 weeks before term finishes, she will not get a Zeugnis and officially she will not get the Versetzung (?) or soemthing into year 3 so this would mean she would have to repeat year 2. This year's work was too easy for her, she was quite far ahead so to have to repeat it would be a major problem for her.

He says I need to get something written from the school saying that they will not allow meto take her to school other than for this Ganztags thing and then he will take it to the Schulamt and sue the school and he is totally on the warpath about it.

He says this whole system is tough at work too but he hadn't realised it was like this at schools too really. Now he understands why people can cope so well with being bossed about unreasonably at work because they learnt to adjust to that system from school on.

Well, dunno really, I think I've just had it. I'll go and have a word with the doc again tomorrow and then I'll call the school and ask them to give me a written Stellungnahme thing but whatever we do now it will be unpleasant for dd. Frankly I'd much rather just take her right out straight away but dh is hot on the Zeugnis/Versetzung thing. Does it matter if she goes to school overseas though? They will just place her with dc her own age won't they? What will they care about a Versetzungs thing or a GErman Zeugnis they can't read?

and if we have to sue the school, etc, honestly what kind of Zeugnis is dd going to get? It's bound to be really nasty, isn't it? So I'm wondering why bother with it

Haven't followed all of this, SSS, but for you. I thought it was all turning out better.

Just to reassure you, an english-system school will put her with her chronological peer group, and will not care about her Zeugnis. They'll probably ask for it as a matter of form, just to make sure she hasn't got two heads or anything, but won't really take any notice.

Not sure quite how it's all gone so pear-shaped, but hope you manage to find a solution.

Sandy, I managed to miss all this. Many, many sympathies.

I doubt very much that any school outside Germany will care about a Y3 Versetzung.

oh thanks frogs. I don't think it's worth making a fuss about the Zeugnis/Versetzungs thing. Would like to leave it amicably. Did dd good to be at this school after the last one and I am quite thankful to them for that IYSWIM, so I wouldn't feel right sueing them and all the rest of it.

The school was heaps better all round. Dd and I much much happier with it. Nicer atmosphere, more creative in the whole approach, etc. It hasn't worked out for dd unfortunately because she has not been able to cope physically with the 8 hour school day on top of the long commute and they won't accept the doctor's certificate which says she must be picked up earlier (after the regular lessons before the afternoon programme), so it is a dead end for us really. We need to move her out.

I have to say I am really at hearing you guys' stories about Gm schools. Not surprised, I suppose, thinking back.

Really surprised though that the school won't accept a Dr's certificate -- the Gms usually worship Drs so much that their word is law. What would they do with a child who had epilepsy or was nut-allergic? Most odd.

I think berolina is right about the Y3 Versetzung -- english headteachers would just look at you blankly and glaze over as you tried to explain. Here you go with your chronological peers come hell or high water, which can be a mixed blessing also sometimes, but I think is on balance a better system. Although the Germans get very when you explain how English schools work.

I am really as well. And Was having hopes of moving back to Germany in a few years' time - but reading all this I really don't think I want my children to go to German schools. Esp with ds potentially having problems...

yes I think dh just has to wind down a bit and then he'll see this whole Versetzungs thing isn't worth getting het up about in our situation. I left a message on his cell phone and he must have been discussing it with colleagues and getting himself worked up as you do. Still I can't see why they could not have agreed to her being picked up as per the doctor's cert for these last 5 weeks or so on the understanding that she will then be leaving the school.

Oh well. Can't be helped now I don't think.

Emkana, maybe it would be different for you, because you would just know how to approach people the right way and find the right tone etc. Maybe I don't and that's why I have the problems I do IYSWIM. Because generally in my dealings with the schools I have to say I LIKE the people but I cannot seem to get to the point where anything can be resolved. Maybe you wouldn't have that problem.

Maybe...

I hope things will resolve for you in a positive way, SSSandy.

Where are you going to send your dd after this do you think?

Thanks emkana, I'm hoping that too! I think initially I will not put her into school but home educate her for some time and during that time look around in leisure for a good school option. I think she has had enough disruption already and I would prefer not to place her straight into a third school after the holidays. We will see though, plenty to consider (panic about!)