Wind, Obst, Wein und Spaß - living in Germany and Austria: the autumn edition

[LinzerTorte]

A thread for all those living in Germany or Austria or anyone who just wants to chat/ask a question about living in or visiting this part of the world - all welcome (particularly as the previous thread has been so quiet recently).

The thread title comes from this song btw - they're not the first four autumnal German words that popped into my head. (It could have been worse; I did briefly consider "Nüsse auf den Teller, Birnen in den Keller".)

Don't forget nominative captain! I was lucky with a teacher who managed to explain it all. I don't know when or exactly how but it somehow clicked.
I'm not saying I get it right but I usually hear it when I get it wrong. Like a "clang" in a melody. I know I've hit a wrong note.

With the ich vs ish I know the "ish" pronunciation is common in Berlin. But I find it hard to follow it's as if the German is slurred.

I was thinking of the Welsh LL, although that's longer (and more spitty ) and the tongue is much wider. I suppose ch is LL with the tongue within the sides of your teeth. You're right that the Scottish "Loch" has the german ch.

Bertie Ah, I see. Yes, your tongue is in a different place when you say ll - touching the roof of your mouth, which it doesn't when you say ch. Another sound that is notoriously difficult for non-native speakers to say, though!

captain I don't have a problem with the cases themselves (after having had them drummed into me for years at school and university) but they learn them in a different order at school here (nominative, genitive, dative, accusative) which just seems all wrong to me! For example, the genitive is the hardest case so should be learned last and be the 4th case, not the 2nd.

Sorry, that should read the tip of your tongue when you say ll.

Ah the joy of cases! We learned them in the order nominative, accusative, dative, genitive & had it drummed into us on a regular basis. I have to admit that has been a help over the years though.

With regards to the standard German 'ch', and just to complicate things a little, the position of the tongue changes depending on whether you are pronouncing the 'ch' after an 'I' or an 'a' (ich-laut or ach-laut) as the vowels are pronounced at different points in your mouth. 'I' is articulated towards the front & top of your mouth & 'a' further down & towards the back, so the 'ch' moves accordingly, if that makes any sense whatsoever. If you say 'eeeee' and 'aaaaah' out loud & concentrate on where your tongue is you should be able to feel the difference. See here

Sorry if that just over complicates the discussion! desperately trying to justify 5 years of uni tuition fees

Actually that link isn't that helpful after all, as it only shows front vowels, this one shows back vowels.

I shall return to my nerd cave now.....

I'm happy to join you in the nerd cave, Woolly - am currently procrastinating over paperwork! Yes, I think N - A - D - G is the standard order of learning the German cases in the UK and makes most sense so it just threw me a bit to discover that they're in a different order here. I have happy memories of having to chant DER - die - das - die, DEN - die - das - die, DEM, etc. (emphasis on masc. sg.) while our German teacher banged on the desk in time to our chanting.

What you were saying about the -ch sound is similar to what I was saying upthread (but without reference to the tongue ) about the Welsh -ch being similar to -ach, -och and -uch but not so much to -ech and -ich, which have a "softer" sound.

Must make the most of my remaining hour or so for some KonMari-ing. Afternoons are getting ever more hectic here; DS has just decided he wants to go to the Red Cross children's group, so that makes three activities (one each) on a Thursday afternoon alone.

Was talking to ds2 about his german yesterday - and about cases in general. He tells me that in Accusativ, the second article can come first in a sentence but would still be second, whereas the first article, which comes second would still be first and you'd know it by the use of DEM rather than blah blah blah .....

Anyway - I'm coming over to Hamburg in Dec for the xmas markets this year. Havent been to the Hamburg ones yet, so that'll be fun!

I learnt it NAGD. But there was also chanting I still mentally flick through the lists of prepositions that take only A or D in my head, thank you Mrs Brock circa 1988 , all that learning things off had to come in handy eventually!

There are so many people speaking German as a second language here in Berlin, there are loads of accents and odd things going on in relation to both pronunciation and grammar. I suppose on the one hand the anything goes approach makes it easier to just jump on in there, OTOH it's not very "pure" German. But then, does anyone really worry about that learning English?

Whenever something's taking a while, I'm going to come on here and gripe about it. After complaining the Kindergeld was taking ages to come through, I got the letter yesterday, hooray! That's the power of MN

It was my four years in Germany anniversary yesterday. I celebrated by errrrr going to the supermarket in the evening

I learnt NADG but that seems like a logical order when it's a second language.
Happy to sit in the need cave too I love random useless bits of info.

captain Now even I'm confused. Do you mean something like "Den Mann habe ich gesehen" where you can still tell the case of the noun by its article rather than its position in the sentence?

Heinous Actually, nominative-accusative-genitive-dative does sound most familiar, although we definitely learned the genitive last at school. I still stand by my statement that accusative should be the 2nd case and not the genitive though.

There are all sorts of funny things going on with regard to pronunciation and grammar here; I have an Austrian friend who tells me I speak better German than she does. There's often quite a difference between correct speech and what people actually say, too (not just here), e.g. strictly speaking, wegen should take the genitive but I don't think I've heard anyone using anything but the dative in everyday speech. A friend of mine (actually the same friend as above) gave me the audio book of Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod for my birthday; I really must get round to listening to it.

Nutella Congratulations on your fourth anniversary! Considering that it's not that long (ok, it was when I first lived in Germany which is admittedly a while back) that you couldn't even go shopping after 6pm, going to the supermarket in the evening seems like quite a good way to celebrate.

Linzer - errrrr..... I'll dig out the actual sentence he read to me. It made sense at the time; something like 'the driver didn't see the old man' which when turned around was 'the old man was not seen by the driver'. The old man was still the second article, for some reason. I kind of switched off, as some thing I will never need and apparently it is only in written german anyway.

'The dative is the genitive his death'? The death of the genetive? Sounds good to me.

captain I think I know what you mean, but right now I can't think of a good example.

Linzer I think in Bayern the law is still that everything shuts at 20:00. DBIL, who lives in Munich was complaining because he can't get to the shops after work.

Oh and I know that often in speech dativ is used instead of the genetive case. But I don't know why.

captain Ah, that was the kind of thing I thought you meant; der Fahrer hat den alten Mann nicht gesehen and den alten Mann hat der Fahrer nicht gesehen both mean the same thing (it's just that the emphasis of the sentence shifts slightly).

Yes, "the dative is the death of the genitive" - and it's a kind of play on words as it uses the dative rather than the genitive ("der Tod des Genitivs").

The genitive can sound a bit formal and pretentious in everyday speech, I think. But I'm sometimes surprised by what can sound too formal - I remember someone in my German class in Berlin saying they were laughed at for saying that someone "hat Selbstmord begangen" and our teacher said yes, the normal way of saying it would be "er hat sich umgebracht".

Oh, and Nutella - Bavaria sounds very similar to here! It may be different in Vienna, but most of the supermarkets here close at 7.30 or 8pm, while most other shops close at 6 or, if you're lucky, 7 pm.

I cannot begin to contribute to the grammar discussion...

However I can contribute the fact that here in rural OberBayern our closest Edeka closes at 7pm Mon- Fri and 2pm on Saturdays. Aldi (a few km further away) is open 8-8 though.

Hello Everyone
DH and I are thinking of spending 6 months next winter/spring in Innsbruck with DS, who will be 2 years at the start. This is a (hopefully) toddler-friendly version of our dream to spend lots of time skiing (DH) and living in a germanic country (mainly me). Viable or nuts? Either way, can anyone recommend the best part of Innsbruck for families? I did German to degree level many moons ago and DH has GSCE. We'll both brush up on it before we go.

Hi Treeceratops, I'm on the other side of Austria and have never been to Innsbruck so am no help on different areas, I'm afraid - I can ask DH when he gets home, but I doubt he'll know much more. I don't know whether anyone else on the thread knows Innsbruck, but there's no one nearby.

Have you spent much time in Austria before? I have a degree in German but still found the dialect quite a shock to the system when I first came here and could understand very little of what my future ILs said (they can't speak Hochdeutsch, which didn't help). The accent/dialect around this area (eastern Austria) isn't too bad, but I think I might struggle in Tirol. Having said that, you do get used to the accent (and acquire it yourself if you're not careful ).

Thank you Linzer. I've only spent 2 weeks in Austria, most recently near Schladming a few years ago. Maybe DS will come back with the accent

DH doesn't know Innsbruck well enough to be able to recommend particular areas, I'm afraid. Yes, I'm sure any words your DS picks up would be in the local accent. Having said that, one thing that puzzles me slightly is that we know a couple of German families here where the children also have German accents (quite strong in one case). The DC have never lived in Germany and I thought that children almost always picked up the local accent, so I'm .

I'm sure you've thought of this already Tree, but if you're on Facebook there are often local groups where you might be able to find more information.

Ooh, company in my nerd cave - I'll put the kettle on :)

Heinous Kindergeld! I need to sort the forms ready for DC2, thank you for reminding me!

Happy Germany anniversary, Nutella!

Treeceratops I'm afraid I don't know Austria at all, but as Linzer suggested, local Facebook groups can be really helpful. There are a few set up (in both English and German) for the area I live in and I've found them to be a huge help.

tree that sounds like a lovely thing to do! It an only be a good thing for you all the ski-ing, the language, the life... Can i come?