Cyber Glühwein und Lebkuchen - the German and Austrian advent thread

[admylin]

A thread for anyone living in Germany or Austria, or anyone else who fancies a chat.

Happy first Advent to everyone!

Previous thread: here

hupa Yes, the main Christmas service is on the morning of the 25th but I always used to find midnight mass far more exciting as a child.

My cursor jumps about too and I find myself typing in the middle of previous sentences, but could never work out why - you're right, though; it must be my sleeve touching the touchpad.

outnumbered I've never heard die Ikea before - I would always just say zu/bei Ikea. But I do talk about die Bipa (like DM, not sure you have it in Germany), which I discovered on my googling quest is short for Billig-Parfümerie (neither Bipa nor Billa are at all cheap!). I think DH is getting a bit fed up with my interest in the issue, as when I asked him yesterday whether he goes zu, zum or zur Billa, he snapped back impatiently, "Gar nicht, ich gehe nur noch zum Spar!"

platanos I've said quite a few things on here that I probably shouldn't have; in a way, I wish this was in Chat so it would disappear after 90 days. But I don't think there's much point in me name-changing as I think it's still going to be obvious that it's me IYSWIM.

Although I used to be quite disappointed that midnight mass didn't actually start at midnight, but at 11/11.30 pm (it was around midnight or just after by the time you came out of church, though).

Linzer I´d left before I saw your answer, so I talked about midnight mass and didn´t mention anything about the 25th. Luckily the teacher didn´t ask or I´d have given the wrong answer. I did manage to talk for the whole 45 minutes because the children asked so many questions. Even though they´re in the 4. Klasse I think quite a few still believe in the Weihnachtsmann. Someone asked if Father Christmas knows the Weihnachtsmann and no one seemed to think it a ridiculous question.

It´s very quiet on here today - is everyone off doing last minute shopping?

hupa and linzer this is what I was talking about. I was ready to throw my netbook in the bin - after having it for a week or so, as the jumping cursor was driving me up the wall. the programme is open source and can easily be downloaded from the web.

dh has a phone interview with IBM at 2pm, so please keep everything crossed for us!

also, I was wondering...we are about to hand in all the forms to the primary school which we have chosen for ds1. they ask about Religionsunterricht...now, dh does not believe. at all. which is why none of our children have been christened. I wasnt christened myself until I was 14 as my parents wanted it to be my choice. if it's up to dh, our dc's would not go to Religionsunterricht but to Ethik instead, whereas I feel that they should go to Reli, giving that we celebrate all the Christian holdidays and I want them to know why etc. How would you feel about it? And what did you decide with yoiur dcs? Another difficulty would also be to choose between Catholic and Protestant Reli. I think where we are now it's primarily Catholic but I am Protestant...sorry, I'm waffling again...

just quickly form work....

outnumbered - we also had to decide what to do as dh and I are not religious. In dds' Volksschule there was no Ethik alternative, and the children who do not go to Catholic classes, sit in the back of another classroom or the teacher might look after them but gives them some colouring in or something. For all of the above, we let dds go to Catholic classes. They wanted to do their first communion but we said that they should wait until they could decide for themselves.

But have decided that they will not go to religion in gymnasium - ethik only starts in the oberstufe in the one we want dd to go to - so they will have some free time until then.

Just rambling, and not really helping, but talking to other parents they also decided on the basis on what was the alternative (ie sitting in the back of a class is not that great) and who was the nicer teacher....what do they do in ethik? I went to a school where no religion was taught as there were lots of different religions - religion was something that happened at home. Not sure if that is right either, as so much of our culture revolves around religion - I just wish they would teach a general class where different religions are discussed.

fingers (and everything else) crossed for the interview.

Morning!! Have had no time for MN as dh was off work since Thursday and now that he's gone back this morning I'm swamped with housework that I didnt do and trying to get organised for Christmas.

outnumbered - have got everything crossed for your dh. Just wanted to quickly post about the religion lessons. We are also agnostic but decided at the Grundschule for the dc to have the Evangelisch lessons as it was them or Catholic & the former seemed less offensive to us. Now that dd is in the Gymnasium, she does Ethik which she really enjoys. Really think there isn't much demand and therefore provision for non - religious families esp in Bayern.

Waves to everyone else . ds2 is home already & I need to clean my car after lunch so thats another day of no MN .

Nutella It's packed and ready to go in the post this afternoon when I go to the bank!

outnumbered Good luck to your DH! Everything crossed for him. I lived in Manchester for 10 years before I moved over here. I studied there and found a good job there after uni so was quite happy to stay as I absolutely love the city!

hupa Glad your talk to the class went well! It sounds like the DC must have found it really interesting if they were asking lots of questions.

platanos Glad your DS is better. I hope the bugs and viruses leave you alone for a while now :)

advent Sorry to hear about your DD's gerbil. It must be really hard for her. I hope the funeral goes well.

Linzer Sorry to hear no-one turned up to the advent get-together. I hope you were dressed in an appropriate number of layers and that you didn't catch a cold

Hello to everyone else!

DS is having a very early nap today, he decided he was afraid of the rug, screeched a bit, whacked me a couple of times with his (current) favourite book to get me to read it to him and zonked out before we were even half way through. (Meg and Mog, so not exactly an epic tome!) I am taking full advantage of the early nap and having lunch, a cup of tea AND some chocolate all to myself with no interruptions.
Actually I really should start sorting and packing (again!) as we're off to Canada for Christmas this weekend and as per usual I am totally unorganised. My cup of tea is taking priority for now though.

Oops, x-post - hello Ploom!

hupa well done on your 45 minute Christmas talk, and bless that child asking if Father Christmas knows the Weinachts mann! DD has become suspicious of Nikolaus because Nikolaus is Herr Hubert when he comes to school on 6th Dec each year but she hasn't directly transferred that suspicion to Father Christmas nor the Christkind

outnumbered fingers crossed and lots of good luck to your DH!

My DD goes to Ethik - DH and I both agree on being very definitely not religious. Kindergarten has already hammered enough "Christianity/ CAtholicism as absolute truth" into my kids after 3 years IMO. I also want my kids to know the stories, but I want them to know they are stories not truth any more than the stories from classical Greek and Roman gods (which I'd also like them to know) IMO - I always tell them that some people believe those stories are true, and some people don't, mummy and daddy don't but grandma and Oma do, so they can chose for themselves, and it is also OK to change their mind. I happily tell my kids Christian stories myself, but I also happily tell them fairytales - and want them to know all the "classic" fairytales too, but don't need school to teach them :) The stories of the dominant religion are part of their cultural capital and help them understanding of the culture and society they live in, but school (and Kiga) teaching one religion's point of view as unquestioned truth here is a mammoth stumbling block for me and one of the things I strongly dislike about the school system, even though I am usually one of the people who speaks up in favour of things other ex-pats dislike, like the shorter days and fact teachers are teachers not childcarers or babysitters here... Like plantanos I really, really wish they would discuss all the major world religions in school, and not be so blinkered...

Linzer I hated midnight mass, but I think its because my parents dragged us to the coldest church in the world every year, it was always colder than outside, and we had to go to 9.30am church as well, every year. When we went away to university my sisters and I used to go up to the village pub on Christmas eve, which was a local tradition, there was always a lock-in :) but even though we'd always tell my mother we were staying at the pub til it closed she used to come into the pub, stand in the doorway and shriek "Girls! Girls! (surname) girls! Time for church!" until we tried to slink inconspicuously out past a sea of mocking or bemused faces

Have fun in Canada Antique!

Everyone is healthy again here finally, for now, touch wood... thanks for thinking of us! Not ready for Christmas, suddenly hit me how near it is this morning when the kids were opening their advent calendars, argh! I have bought presents, just need to get the house in shape really, well, not that it matters that much, but it would be nice... So maybe should get off the laptop (not that DS2 will let me get much done, he is resting against me, though not asleep, after a busy morning out of the house).

Grinch I think midnight mass was one of the few services I enjoyed as it was a real luxury to be able to stay up until midnight! We were also dragged to church when we were younger, though; my brother now refuses to go at all, and I still get that sinking Sunday morning feeling if DH mentions church (although I quite enjoy the coffee afterwards!).

Antique I couldn't remember exactly when you were off to so I hope your card gets to you before then - I'm still writing Christmas cards in my usual last-minute panic and am sure that quite a few of them won't arrive until after Christmas.
Amazingly enough, none of us has come down with a cold despite standing around for over an hour in the cold, damp weather on Saturday. How can this be?

Ploom Boo to pesky DHs who curtail your MNing time! Hope you catch up on the housework quickly (MN usually takes priority here).

platanos I read something about Ethik being introduced here; I didn't realise you could do it already at some schools (not at DD1's, but that's only Unterstufe).

outnumbered I'm not Catholic (or even particularly religious) but the DC were all baptised here and in the UK and go to RE. I think because Catholicism is such a big part of life in Austria, it's good that they learn about it (without, hopefully, being indoctrinated) - although like platanos, I also wish they would discuss different religions. I remember learning about Hinduism in RE for example, but can't see it happening here.
If they didn't go to RE, they would be out of school an hour early or start an hour late a couple of times a week. This obviously didn't influence my decision, I hasten to add but the mornings are short enough as it is.

hupa I'm always quite careful about what I say when I'm teaching the children about Christmas as I'm never too sure whether they all still believe in the Christkind - I usually just say something like the Christkind doesn't come in Britain, so we have to put up the tree ourselves!

Oh yes I've told the children that there has always been a winter festival around Christmas, but people think it is roughly the time of Jesus's birthday and that is why these days it is called Christmas DD gets it, DS1 doesn't really - not really because of their ages, as DD has always got it, ever since she was about 3, DS1 is a bit more literal and it is actually because of him that I get cross about Kindergarten telling him all the Christian beliefs are literal truth - he gets really upset by the very graphic Catholic crucifixes with the blood running, and asks "but why did people want to hurt him and get him totally dead if he wasn't even nasty?" its big stuff for little children who actually think about what they are told, and whose parents and teachers wouldn't dream of showing them such graphic images on TV etc...

I don't think the DC were ever told much about religion at KiGa (certainly, they never reported anything to me), although they did celebrate Catholic festivals. I don't have a problem with the RE lessons in school (although did look a bit when DD1 started talking about "der liebe Gott"), but I'm not the Catholic church's biggest fan.

I foolishly decided to make a pasta and bean stew today (as I've bought all the ingredients for this week's meals and they need to be used up by Saturday), but somehow I don't think that DD2's and DS's friends are going to eat it. The question is... should I put a pizza in the oven for them instead? (I think I'm going to have to, as they're here/won't be back home until 7 pm.)

They are at ours Linzer - and both school and KiGa have quite a lot of events in the Pfarrheim (with the scary blood covered crucifixes...)

I find the fixation on crucifixes a little strange - both my PIL and SIL have them hanging over their beds, despite not being particularly religious (I don't think they even go to church at Christmas). I discovered a crucifix among DH's things but have banned him from hanging it up in our bedroom. The DC have crucifixes in their classrooms, but I've never noticed them being covered in blood - will have to have a closer look next time!

About to go to work but I just had to post this:

DD had Ethik today. Guess what they learnt? Oh yes - the nativity story. No context of some people believe this and others don't or of the founding stories of any other religions, where Islam places Jesus in its lore in contrast to where Christianity does etc. etc. - they acted out the story with puppets and music (they had fun, but begs the question of just what is the actual distinction between Ethik rather than just Evangelic class...)

Thank you all very much about your views on RE classes and Ethik at school. From what I have seen so far, this area certainly isnt as religious and catholic as Bavaria and Austria. ds2&3 are at a catholic pre-school (because it'S the closest one to us), ds1 is at a pre-school run by the Lebenshilfe. both talk about the Christian holidays and why we celebrate them, maybe the catholic one a little bit more. What I love is that one of ds1' Erzieher (at the Lebenshilfe Kindergarten) is gay, and it is completely normal to ds1 that one can marry either a man or a woman.

Anyway, what I was trying to say, I think ds1 going to RE classes here I wouldnt feel like he was being indoctrinated, but dh would not let him go to the Catholic one (for fear of indoctrination). I'm still undecided. If Ethik is anything like what you describe, Grinch ( btw, he might as well go to evangelisch RE. otoh, Ethik would be a very small group and that might be quite nice for him as he struggles in bigger groups...

dh' telephone interview went quite well. they will try to let him know if he is through to the next stage before Christmas or mid-January at the latest. I dont want to wait that long!!! he has another phone interview tomorrow late afternoon and one interview about 75km from here (although for the job he'd be always on the road) on Thursday afternoon, so please my body crossing

outnumbered keeping everything crossed for your DP's interviews!!!
I saw a programme about the church's involvement in schooling around Germany... It was certainly incredible and worrying that it was a programme made in 2011 and not some 30+ years ago. Even though the church was not responsible for paying anything towards the school facilities, staff, equipment etc the staff were chosen not for their ability but for their beliefs because for some reason the church were "in charge"... Didn't like it one bit.

But I can see the sense in sending the children to a class that happens and involves them even if it is a religious class as apposed to something that isnt structured. Anyway, you mainly reminded me of the programme which I was, honestly, just gobsmacked by. Ah christenings/baptisms a whole new topic DP and I can argue about discuss in the new year

I went to a CofE (church of England) primary which was next door to the church and almost every Friday morning we went to church, other times the vicar would come and give us a talk and tell us some stories... But mainly he was a miserable old racist .... Oh the memories....

Anyway.... Moving on... Midwife appointment was fine and for reasons I couldn't really catch she is coming again tomorrow. I'm also having acupuncture tomorrow, but at my birthing centre/ midwife led unit place. Really looking forward to it, I've never had acupuncture before :) and apparently it can help with water retention (compression stockings are my new sexy friends). Sadly it'll probably be the only appointment I can manage :( but I'll ask just in case :)

nutella can you remember the name of the program you watched? What you described about the church' involvement in schooling does not ring true with me - neither from my perspective as a girl growing up and going to school nor as a teacher at a German gymnasium. We did have re, but I do remember learning about other cultures and religions there too. I don't remember the church playing any part at all on my schooling.

And as a teacher I wasn't even asked of my confession during the interview. And in school life there i also don't remember anything at all being remotely religious.

What you describe really doesn't sound anything at all like the Germany I know, so I'd quite like to try and watch that programme myself. Do you remember if it was about Germany in general or a certain part of Germany?

Glad your mw appt went well! How exciting :) and you are certainly braver than me going for acupuncture! Hope it helps with the water retention as well.

It was a documentary on ARD called hier und heute on 27.11 ( thanks DP for finding that)
Apparently the church's involvement in schools has been increasing in recent years. They followed one story of a kindergarten teacher who was being forced to leave her job at a catholic kindergarten because she was divorced, the parents found it outrageous, got involved and managed to have the kindergarten split from the Catholic Church. Can't remember which church took over but their attitude was, unsurprisingly, almost exactly the same; but as long as you declared yourself catholic or Protestant you would be able to work there.

DP very generously just said that the Protestants weren't as fussy (in the programme) as the Catholics. But Muslims would definitely not be allowed to work there I don't understand how that can be legal.

Thank you nutella and to your dp for finding the info. i will see if i can still watch it online!

At a catholic kindergarten, or any kindergarten (or school) specifically linked to a church, I can see how they want staff to have a confession. But there are always other choices for parents where to send their children. If I look around our city, there are several Catholic pre schools, several prostestant ones, several community ones as well as 2 or so run by the Uni, this also not linked to the church. With schools, at least both where we are now as well as where we were before, there was one Catholic primary school, the rest were community ones, and no secondary school linked to any churches.

I do think the Catholic are much stricter with everything and just aren't quite up-to-date with their beliefs...

Sorry I feel like I come across defensive which I don't mean to be at all. I'm just baffled as religion never played a big -or any- part of my schooling at all and us not what I am experiencing now either. Will def try to watch the documentary so that I can understand it better :)

No problem outnumbered I hope you do get to watch it, I'd love to hear what you think of the programme. I've only been in Germany (and learning german) for two years so I know I haven't understood everything then if I add my own prejudices it probably plays to my personal negative views about religion.

I agree that a religious school or kindergarten is likely to choose members of their own faith to teach there; but what bothered me was, according to the programme, that the church was running the school without being (from what I understood) financially responsible for the school. So I suppose in short what bothered me was that they were state institutions being run by the church. Rather than privately run.

I do realise that coming from London (the most multiculturally diverse city in the world ) to Germany is a bit of a leap in some ways.
I don't want to cause any offence though and I definitely do believe that everyone is entitled to a choice, their own ideas, opinions and beliefs.

Absolutely no religion in public schools here, no cute nativity plays with the kids wearing tea towels. There are various Christian schools in town which are fee-paying, the largest of which are Lutheran and Catholic. Must look up the Episcopalian service times as their tea-time Christmas Eve service is really nice.

Fingers x'd for your dh outnumbered.

Loved having acupuncture when pg nutella. Hope it relaxes you.

Pasta and bean casserole sounds nice Linzer. Kids will prefer pizza though .

Have a fab time in Canada antique.

We've always used the 'some people believe' line too grinch. The other day ds1 was talking about the beginning of the world and firmly told me that it was the big bang! He's such a little scientist!

Well done on talking for so long hupa. I did manage to stretch out a German lesson for little ones for quite a while asking 'welche Farbe brauchst du?' so they could colour in a picture of a snowman and Tannenbaum!

Hello to Ploom and Platanos and anyone else who is reading!

Not really sure what evangelisch and ethik are. But my views are as per Grinch's. Not sure if you know, outnumbered, but we are homeschooling DS, so we won't have to worry about this kind of thing (yes I know it is illegal to HS here, we will have moved to another country by the time it becomes an issue). But religious indoctrination is one of the reasons I want to homeschool (though not the only reason). I was schooled at convents, both primary and secondary, obviously that was my mother's choice, but I do think religious indoctrination should have no place in schools.

Sorry, wrote that in a rush. By indoctrination, I mean focus on one religion, as if it is the only one, and the right one, and the truth.

WhatWould I think it would be fairly easy to avoid the focus on Catholicism at school here, as you'd opt out of RE. Apart from the crucifix in the classroom, it's all kept fairly separate - they have a different RE teacher from their normal form teacher, the first and last days of school start with a church service but the non-Catholic children go to school an hour later, etc. We don't have an alternative like Ethik (ethics) here, although the evangelisch (like Protestant) children have (fewer) RE lessons with a different RE teacher.

Jenny No Nativity plays here, either - I think they're a peculiarly British thing, aren't they? I have memories of being made to feel like I was a second-class citizen as I didn't have blonde hair so I was never allowed to be an angel or Mary (not sure whether being blonde was a key criterion for being able to play Mary too, but I never did).

Waves to everyone else - must go and have my shower and then get the DC up!