Der Nebel steigt, es fällt das Laub - a German and Austrian autumn thread

[AntiqueMuppet]

A thread for anyone living in Germany or Austria, or anyone else who fancies a chat.

Previous thread here

Morning! Just a quick post before I start work; I managed to get quite a lot done last night - despite the Internet going all temperamental on me yet again (DH phoned it up and sorted it out, thankfully) - so should be able to get it all sent off before DS is out of school in less than two hours.

Bienchen We have one ökumenischer Kindergarten in our town, but otherwise the church doesn't seem to do a great deal (no holiday childcare, for example); there are plenty of other organizations I'd rather give my money to! If you leave the church, you wouldn't be allowed to get married in it/have your children christened/be a godparent, etc., which is fair enough really, but you're opting out of the church as a whole rather than just paying church tax (not sure exactly how it is in Germany).

I don't think piñatas have made it to Austria yet; I've never heard them mentioned here, let alone seen one at a party.

Have just come back from Hofer as they have children's winter boots for sale this week, and it was madness! It took several minutes before I could even squeeze in to start looking for the sizes I needed. Am very glad I went this morning; I wasn't sure I could afford the time, but I doubt there'll be many left this afternoon.

Morning everyone!

A friend posted this article about atheism in eastern Germany on my FB page recently. It says that they did a survey and couldn't find a single person under 28 who believed in God. That's not really been my experience here - dnephew would be my first example to the contrary - but then a fair proportion of my playing work involves accompanying church choirs. I have noticed that whereas in the UK I generally found that higher intelligence/level of education almost always correlated with a lack of religious belief, that doesn't seem to hold true here. Of course that may well say more about British culture than (East) German, or possibly about my own preoccupations at different stages of my life .

Thanks for the blu-tack tips, everyone. English, do you think happy families would be impossible with more than 6 players - I have 11 in the group, although it's rare that they all turn up. Previous experience has shown that playing games in small groups is very difficult, although it depends on the game, of course.

Hi, flippety, welcome to the thread!

cheas I´d imagine it might be quite hard for 4 year olds to play separate games, but I´ve never actually tried. I think with older children it would work quite well.

Like English I find it really disappointing that religion here doesn´t cover other religions. We´ve also gone down the route of some people believe this, but we don´t. The Grundschule here seems to have real trouble finding teachers for religion. At the moment the catholic and evangelische children are all taught together. The catholic children in dd´s class are just starting their preparation for communion, but seem more interested in how much money they are going to get rather than focusing on the religious aspects of it all.

Bienchen This is the first party where we´ll have a pinata. I´m just hope it takes quite a long time to smash because it was quite expensive if it only lasts a couple of minutes. Of course, if i was more creative and organised, i could have mad my own.

Hi Flippity. Was your dd born in Germany? We´ve got friends in Hamburg, althoguh don´t get to visit them nearly enough.

Work has finally been sent off and I've had some positive feedback from it, which is always nice, so I can relax at last!

hupa I was at how much money DD2 was given for her first communion; ?100 from her godmother (who's not particularly well off), for example. My SIL is DD1's godmother and I think she only gave her a photo album, although she has far more money thanks to never having had to pay rent, buy a house, pay for all her childcare, etc.

cheas Interesting about higher levels of education equating to lack of religious belief; I've never really found that, although the sample of people attending my parents' church probably isn't representative (and very few of them are under 60!). Of the friends of mine who are religious, one has a PhD and the other an MA; OTOH most of my friends have been to university, so I don't exactly know a representative sample either!

Forgot to mention yesterday that when the neighbours came over, I went out into the kitchen to get the cake and when I went back into the living room, DD1 was in the middle of telling them that my nickname is LinzerTorte! My neighbour was looking a bit ; thank goodness she's unlikely to have heard on MN (not that she'd be very interested in my wafflings, I'm sure!).

We've been lucky and always had an option to either have ethiks or opt out and come home early (primary) and now at secondary my dc have done some interesting stuff in ethiks about religions including visiting a nearby sikh temple.

Ds has just started reading my God Delusion book and he has had some heated discussions in ethiks as most of the non christian (from other religions) dc are in ethiks too not just the atheists.

hupa hope the pinata lasts a while and nothing else gets bashed when they're hitting it!
Well done on getting the boots linzer. Did you get pushed and shoved or was everyone civilized?! I've seen pushing and shoving when they have snow suits.
Hi flippity is your dd studying in Berlin? We used to live in Berlin and wouldn't mind going back although prices are getting higher and higher so I doubt we'd be able to afford to live in Mitte where we used to live.

ploom how did you sleep with the monitor on dh? Is your dh stressed? My dh had it when he was all worked up and stressed about an up coming conference and then he thought he'd had a stroke so they ran aload of test.

Dd goes to the kieferorthopäde this afternoon. He's putting some sort of elastics on to separate her teeth in preparation for her brace being fitted. I'm not sure I have understood the whole treatment plan but somehow get the feeling the parents aren't expected to turn up or ask questions at these appointments.

Oh dear linzer maybe you should name change just in case? How about Marillenknödel?

hupa I made my own piñata because the ones available commercially all had online reviews saying that they were very difficult to break, so you should be all right on that front! I ended up tearing a little hole in mine with my finger once it had developed a weak spot to help it on its way, but DD only had 2 and 3 yos at her party, so they weren't really strong enough (or coordinated enough) to whack it properly. I can't remember how old your ds is? I woud recommend putting on some loud party music (or possibly counting and clapping) while the kids are whacking - my Peruvian friend sang a traditional piñata bashing song at DD"s party - it gets a bit boring if they're whacking for too long without anything obviously happening.

I hope I didn't offend anyone with my previous post. I certainly doubt whether I would have come to the independent conclusion that God doesn't exist had I been brought up with a religious belief.

Feeling very nostalgic reading this thread, moved back to the UK last summer after 9 years away, 3 of them in Berlin. Had a great time! Especailly loved the run up to Christmas, starting with St Martin's lantern walks in November, and the Bratwurst and all that Glühwein...sigh.

That made me LOL, admylin! I think she might have picked up on my embarrassment and quick change of subject as her face changed from to , but she probably just thought it's a secret nickname DH has for me! I'm pretty sure I've never posted anything I would mind her reading, though; the only people I really wouldn't want to find me on here are my ILs (or my family, for that matter).

Everyone was quite civilised this morning, actually; two people smiled at me and a couple of people even asked others what sizes they were looking for.

Hope the appointment goes OK this afternoon. I still haven't got round to making an appointment for DD1's check-up at the orthodontist's, which was due in July IIRC, but I'm giving myself a couple of weeks off after making the appointment with the dermatologist (which I'd been putting off for about a month).

cheas You certainly didn't offend me; I hope it didn't come across that way. My parents have always gone to church (which I was highly embarrassed about when I was younger, as I didn't know anyone else who did) but I'm more of an agnostic now. We go to the Familienmesse most months, but it reminds me of having to go to church when I was little so I can't get very enthusiastic about it - although I do enjoy the coffee, cake and gossip at the Pfarrcafé afterwards.

Hi Charlotte; were you in Germany for the whole nine years that you lived abroad?

No, I tell a lie. I don't actually enjoy the coffee at all. It's far too strong and only ever lukewarm, and tastes particularly bad when the men (Männer something or other; can't remember what they call themselves) make it.

Linzer when I was 16 or 17 The Guardian reprinted an article from the New Scientist about the inverse correlation between intelligence and religious belef, which may well have primed me to see the same in my own circle of acquaintances. Certainly within my ridiculously small sample of close friends on my university course, the four who got firsts were atheists, whereas the two Christians got a 2:1 and a 2:2 respectively (I realise that's about as convincing as the evidence supporting homeopathy )

Anyway, I don't nean that I think all atheists are brighter than all believers, just that if I've pigeonholed someone as highly intelligent, then it tends to surprise me if they turn out to believe in God (and, of course, that does happen!)

Linzer No, it was an x-post. I'd been thinking about it after posting and got worried since there are newer posters on this thread who don't know me that well - I get the feeling that we are on a very similar wavelength most of the time and so hoped you would understand the post as I meant it!

That's a relief, cheas - I was worrying I might have written something defensive that made you think you'd offended me! I knew exactly what you meant anyway, but don't think I know enough practising Christians to generalise; there was only one on my course at university and she got a 2:1 IIRC. I think I'm just generally quite surprised if someone turns out to be a churchgoer full stop as they always used to seem very few and far between in the UK. Catholicism also has - completely irrationally - negative connotations for me as I was horribly bullied by a girl who went to a Catholic school.

At any rate, I'm not a huge fan of the Catholic church here and think it gets far too much money (I want to shout at all those people throwing bank notes into the collection that there's no need; they get plenty in the way of church tax already!).

Wow, this thread moves quickly - haven't managed to read all of it yet.

My two older children were born in Germany and have a German father, they speak both languages fluently. My daughter is 24 and currently out of work, she wants to study but has struggled to get permission so far. She took A levels in the UK and they are not recognising them in Germany so she may have to repeat two or three years of Abitur before she can study. However she's had a tough time healthwise recently and is now out of work (was working as a waitress but lost her job due to illness). She wanted to study to be a nurse but I can tell she is having doubts, so she is getting as much advice as she can at present.

My son who is 21 finished college here in the UK this year and is now working at Aldi, he's been there a year and has just been promoted to Deputy Store Manager. He studied sport with a view to becoming a PE teacher in primary school but at the moment is happy with his promotion.

It's great to read what you are all up to. Sorry I'm struggling to remember names at present but I'll catch up eventually. I've been reading the thread on my phone so far but today I'm working again (been ill for a few days, my youngest too) and am viewing this on a computer which makes it easier.

Hmm, I agree with you about churchgoers in the UK seeming to be uncommon, but otoh when I randomly tally up my circle of good friends, a significant proportion are religious, in a going-to-bible-study classes/possessing-of-bookcases-devoted-to-religious-texts way. Oh no, I'm disproving my own theory, aren't I? All my friends went to university, therefore the proportion of religious belief among graduates is higher than in the general population .

Hello, Charlotte, seem to have missed your post there!

flippety How annoying that they won't recognise your dd's A levels. I initially applied for a postgrad course here, only to be told that they didn't accept a Bachelor as the equivalent of the German Diplom, but I assumed that was mainly down to the number of Regelsemester, which wouldn't apply to A levels.

Would the two of you like to take part in my extremely well-designed and completely unbiased survey? Are you religious, and if so, did you get a 2:1 at university (if you went, of course)?

cheas I'm not religious and I didn't get a 2:1, so does that help to confirm your theory? I would recommend that, for research purposes, you make some friends who didn't actually go to university. If 99% of them (you need to get to know at least 100) are churchgoers, then your initial theory isn't disproved after all.

And why are people in the UK who go to church (of around my age) the bible study/Christian bookshop type, whereas Austrian churchgoers are much better at hiding their beliefs? (I would suggest a separate study to examine this question.)

Ooh, I have an acquaintance here who didn't go to university. I don't know whether she believes in God, but she recently liked a post on fb in which someone suggested the long-term unemployed should have their benefits removed and be left to starve to death. I could extrapolate all sorts of prejudiced judgmental assumptions based on that, couldn't I?

Take your point about the formulation of my survey question: it should read "are you religious and, if so, did you get a 2:1 or lower?"

(That thought had also crossed my mind, especially as I misspelt flippity in my last post .)

cheaspicks, no, sorry, not religious and didn't go to uni!

btw I don't mind how you spell my name, I know who you mean.

Hmmm 2 people on my uni course got firsts (big course - English lit, about 300 people) strangely we both lived on the same corridor in our 3rd year :) One was me - I'm agnostic in the "there is no way of ever knowing if there is any form of god type being, but I highly doubt it" sense, and the other one was very active in the Christian Union with very strongly held beliefs... Not sure what that means :) I was only actually friends with one Christian on my course at uni, and she got a 2:2, none of my other uni friends were religious at all. My parents are very religious (church wardens, dad's a lay preacher etc.) and they are both medical doctors (which I often wonder how they reconcile, but neither will talk about religion in an analytical way, if I ever tried as a teen my dad would growl "don't show your ignorance" and my mum would either cry, or say I'd understand when I was older, or if she was feeling light hearted brush any questioning off as a "little rebellion" ...

cheas, not religious, got a 2:1... does that help?

We have roadworks RIGHT outside the restaurant today! Health and safety doesn't seem to exist in the village - they are ripping up the road surface, but passersby are dodging around the JCB, no-one has hard hats on and at the Eiscaffe they have ripped up the pavement right in front of the door but people are still going in! I have seen young children dodging swinging loads of bricks to get to the post box

Cake at the photos you posted on FB; can you imagine that happening in the UK?! Is it affecting your business much?

English That's very impressive; sounds like it must have been quite a difficult course. I think about 10% of the students on my course got a first.

cheas Are you still friends with your acquaintance?!?

english you're ruining my theory! A third of the people in my year got firsts and the most religious person barely scraped a third, so that makes my sample the most valid, doesn't it?

cake you neither prove nor disprove my theory .

flippity how about enrolling on an OU degree in statistics? I'll coach you through it - you're bound to get a first and then you'll back up my theory!

linzer I didn't defriend her if that's what you mean, but I haven't had any contact with her since. She works a horrific-sounding shift pattern as a meat packer, lives in a tower block on an estate and tries to do her best by her three-year-old son, so I can sort of see how she might feel resentful of her neighbours who don't work and don't seem to have to make the sacrifices she does .

Yes, sorry cheas, I meant are you still FB friends with her. Given more background, you can easily see how someone can end up with those kinds of views.

I've done quite a few translations for the statistics office, so will have to check through all my old files to see whether there's any correlation between religious views and level of educational attainment. Actually, I can't remember having translated anything about religion at all - it seems to be more about cows and vine yard surveys. (space deliberate)

Actually the original article I base my prejudice on was pretty interesting. Iirc it said that only about 10% of scientists described themselves as believing in a personal god and that that dropped to 1% among Nobel prize winners. They rather lamely concluded that these results were likely to be replicated in most other fields - yes, because there's nothing about science to make it less popular to believers, is there ?