Die Kaffeestube Teil 2 - virtual Kaffeeklatsch in Germany and Austria

[cheaspicks]

Chat for those living in a German-speaking country, or anyone else who is interested.

English one of the books I was desperately skim-re-reading this afternoon said exactly the same. Attuned parents reward new, more complex types of babble with more attention, stimulating the child to practise the new sounds and go on to develop new sounds and eventually actual words.

Funnily enough, the only children I know who have preferred to rely on non-verbal communication at age 2 have been second children!

cheas and what does the book say is the reason? Because the parents are not as attuned anymore and do not reward new and more complex types of babble with child number 2?

And again and then I think I have written enough already, all I have said about only children has not been mentioned as a comparison to second or third child. It is an issue about only child or first child in the first three years, which can go BOTH ways and not the usual and typical only way mentioned by parents who have their own first or only-children talking and chatting fairly early.

Ok, but I still take issue with "usually NO NEED to speak" . if you agree that "usually" refers to the norm and you say that English's experience (which mirrors mine as the parent of an only 3yo) is typical of the norm, then you are contradicting yourself somewhat.

X-post. The parents are no longer able to react as consistently to child no. 2 as they are distracted (for want of a better word) by child no. 1.

I am saying it is 'your norm' it is a 'norm' perceived by most parents to be right and normal it is not necessarily the 'true' norm out there, it varies massively how parents parent, stimulate, and speak to their children.

You and English might be the ones who would think it not to be normal for a 2-ear old you meet on a playground to be not as chatty or being able to easily understand her 'the norm', and I am saying it is not un-normal.

Does this make sense? And when I say no need to speak, well I don't mean it literally as in never ever needs to speak as in not saying a word.

Obvioulsy I mean you might perceive it as not 'the norm'

Washing machine finished its cycle and clouds have passed, so now I will finish my last errand, and no cheas I don't consider this a bunfight either

Interesting discussion, I am late to it as usual! :) Just placed an order for the book cheas suggested, I find it all so fascinating. DS is currently an only. I'd agree with world that his vocabulary is amazing, but he is not a chatterbox - but then neither am I. He astounds me with what he knows and what he comes out with - words I don't remember using. Sometimes I think he has lived before! :)
And he counts to five in Spanish, from watching Dora! Need to find a German equivalent! :)

Hope you enjoy the book, vegans. I was wrong about the speech delay in bilinguals statistic coming from there, though. It must be in a book on bilingualism that I lent to a friend.

I had a new kiga group for English for the first time last week - several of them could already count in English from watching Dora. Does "German" Dora alo speak Spanish, does anyone know? DD hasn't watched much Dora yet, but sings along to a song in Spanish that happens to be on one of her CDs!

world we were obviously talking about different criteria yesterday - I can appreciate that a 2yo that spends most of its time 1:1 with a single primary carer might not be particularly talkative. Mind you, DD is very talkative but not particularly chatty, how does that fit?

cheas if it doesn't fit, then we make it fit

Morning!
Well that was a busy saturday you lot had on here yesterday - think thats the nearest we've ever got to a bunfight on this thread (altho I do know it wasnt one before I start another one).

cheaspicks - Dora teaches dc English in Germany - no sign of any Spanish which I find weird because I know her as Spanish Dora from the UK. ds2 has a whole range of spanish words (as do I) from years of reading Dora books.

So to add my tuppence to the speech debate - dc1 was an only child till she was just over 3 years old and started to speak in sentences at a fairly average age of 22 months. She was talkative and chatty which I thought at the time was because she had me all to herself on the days we were at home (I worked 3 days a week) and the influence of nursery (which makes her not one of the dc that world was talking about). I would never have thought of not speaking to her when we were alone together - that would have felt strange. I just babbled on to her about what was going on right from when she was a baby and as she started to say words then I would obviously respond vocally to those words.

dc2 was a later speaker and his speech was more unclear for longer. I had presumed this was because he couldnt get a word in because dd was so chatty and that he was bilingual. But then dc3 came alone and spoke early (could count to 10 in both languages well before his 2nd birthday) and clearly and was definitely the best speaker out the 3. This seems to perfectly support what cheas wrote higher up the thread.

cake - I really feel that English is more difficult to learn to read in than German. ds1 really struggled when I tried to teach him to read in English at the age of 5 (when he would have started school in the UK) and thought he was dyslexic because he struggled so much. But when you look at how difficult it is even with teaching good phonics (how are the supposed to know the sound "ea" if its different in hear, bear, bread and again how are they supposed to know here and there without just memorising them). He can now read fluently in German after just the first class which seems to be improving his English reading skills. But I have heard from other bilingual friends whose dc find reading German hard because of the length of the words and trying to find where to divide them to pronounce them properly.

Well I better go and get lunch sorted then we're off to a medieval fest in the local town. Its in a ruined castle and they have people all dressed up in medieval costume. Quite a fun afternoon out.

world

cheas

ploom yes English phonic can be hellish - there seem to be no rules governing pronounciation :)

Well we're absolutely kaputt tonight after a non-stop day in the restaurant. Great news though as with this week's weather we hadn't had a good week up to today...

I managed to find time this morning to collect some haws and elderberries for jam/schnapps. Got a good haul too, although the dog got rather bored and fed up.... :)

Good evening all!
Well that was an interesting discussion... Just to add my few tuppence... I am no.3 of 4. Between oldest two is a gap of 7years 10 months. Between the rest of us the gaps are about 18 months. I believe I was a fairly early talker (i know I said my first word at one) and I used to interpret for my (18 months) younger brother when he was small and his speech was slightly delayed.

Very intrigued and will be buying chease's book recommendation. In fact if anyone has book recommendations I am really interested in language generally, hopefully I can add them to my Christmas list and get the brothers to send me amazon vouchers... This year I'm also going to be asking for "English supplies" :)
But hopefully my mum is organising a bit of a family meet up in a couple of weeks. Need to check with the Dr & airline if I need a certificate (will be 29 weeks).
Went to an amazing wedding yesterday! Managed until almost 2am, I was rather proud of myself... Although dancing without stomach muscles is not easy and very tiring!

Nutella I used to have a lot of books about bringing up children bilingually, but appear to have decluttered them. I must admit it's been years since I read them so I'm not sure which I'd recommend most, but I found both The Bilingual Family and Growing Up With Two Languages a good read.
Yes, good idea to check with the airline - I have the feeling that most need a certificate after 28 weeks.

Cake We've got elderberries in our garden so DH made Hollerröster (which I'd never heard of before) yesterday, which the DC had in pancakes. I am still undecided about how appetising it looks, plus I'm not Austrian enough to want a sweet main course (DH said they could eat it with Marillenknödel - apricot dumplings - today).

Ploom Hope you enjoyed your medieval day out; it looked nice and sunny on your FB photos!

We had a day out at a Fossilienwelt yesterday; it was actually really interesting (much more so than I thought it would be!). After the guided tour, you could dig (or rather, sift through sand) for fossils - shark's teeth and pearls; the DC found quite a collection and DD2 even had a shark's tooth that she found made into a necklace!

Also meant to say that's great news about how much your DD has improved admylin and that the dyslexia tuition is helping. We're giving it a break for the time being, but will see how DD1 gets on at her new school.

linzer sounds like a nice Sunday outing, were you able to just let them get on with it or did you have to get in and dig with them?
Yes, I think we'll do the next 20 sessions of therapy and then dd should be OK to stop. It's great for her to have some Erfolg!

nutella well done for lasting until 2am! The good thing is you can also have a lie in after a late night, so enjoy that too as those days will soon be over

Can't add much to the speach/age discussion as I don't think my 2dc were bilingual and my first born was a very early talker. We lived in an English speaking bubble until they went to Kindergarden aged 4. They knew a few words of German but didn't speak it.

Dd planned her birthday yesterday (she makes plans, notes, menus lists etc for everything!) so she's having her friends round after school on a friday, 2 of them are sleeping over (no room for more) and they're having a movie night with pizza then when they get up on Saturday they're going into the city centre to shop and eat out. At the moment shopping is her newly discovered hobby. It won't last as you need money for that hobby but she's happy for now!

It's good that your DD is happy to do all the planning for her birthday, admylin! DD2 loves making lists too, although she's not quite at the planning-the-entire-party stage yet.

DH helped the DC to search for fossils, but I was able to sit in one of the beach chairs at the edge of the sand and read. In fact, I was told that I wasn't allowed to help by the man in the charge as we had a family ticket, which was only for four people. I wasn't complaining, though.

linzer nice that your dh is a hands on dad! Mine is too busy working! He's booked all his tickets and is off to Portugal next week to give his lectures. He comes home a day before it ends as he's not interested in the gals dinner (for 80?) or the last day of talks and lectures.

Just got back from the hairdresser. The most common complaint is that they cut too short but this one wouldn't do it as short as I wanted!! Anyway, it looks alot better than it was. I'd let it get far too long. Tuned out the girl cutting my hair lives upstairs above us! We've crossed each other on the stairs before but just quickly said hello so we had a good moan abot the landlady!

That sounds lovely, Linzer. I'm looking forward to the day when DD can just get on with playing and let me read - ploom said she'd taken a car-full of dc to a soft play centre and been able to read all afternoon, that seems light years away for me.

Nutella I think The Bilingual Family is probably the one I lent to my friend, so I would second that recommendation. The stuff I was repeating on babbling was from Nurtureshock, although there's only one chapter devoted to language acquisition. I also really enjoyed What's Going On In There, although it gets very scientific in parts (written by a neurologist and mother) and covers all aspects of development, not just language.

My other top books off the parenting shelf are:
Playful Parenting - only useful from about age 2, but interesting for teachers as well as parents.
The Politics of Breastfeeding - don't read if it doesn't work out, though.
Delusions of Gender - how virtually none of the "innate" differences actually are!
Why Love Matters - persuasive arguments supporting attachment theory

Sorry for not linking, it is possible on an ipad, but a PITA and I am lazy.

admylin I never used to be able to get hairdressers to cut my hair as short as I wanted when it was curly, but they're OK about it now. Mind you, one hairdresser recently said she wouldn't cut it any shorter as it would look like a balloon otherwise.

Yes, DH is very hands-on; I'm more of the benign neglect school. As he's not around much during the week, I don't feel too guilty about letting him be the DC's main entertainer at the weekends. They do go off and play by themselves too, so DH and I sometimes even get the chance to talk without interruptions.

cheas I read all the time when we were on holiday in the summer, but it was only the second year I was able to do so. I also find it much easier if there are other children around; at the moment, I feel like I spend 90% of the afternoons stopping the DC from trying to kill each other. It's also only recently that DS has started to go off and play by himself (the DDs did so a little earlier IIRC).

Another book I found useful was Baby Talk by Sally Ward. A lot of it is common sense so I suspect that the David Crystal book is more in-depth (haven't read that particular one, but always find his writing very interesting and accessible, without being - as cheas said - dumbed down), but I did find some helpful ideas in it. The title is a bit misleading though, as it also covers toddlers and preschoolers.

Thanks Chease and Linzer I'll have a look at them and see if I can get the boys to keep them in mind for christmas.

admylin hope you enjoyed the haircut :) mine is a bit too short (although two other friends I know go to the same guy and we think he is having a scissor happy phase... but then I can wait longer until the next cut :) )... I wish I could go to the hairdresser every week just for a head massage...

I also need to get writing a wish list for if I do pop to the UK... lets see Branston pickle.. custard creams... hmmm so many essentials! Right better get on. Have a great day everyone!

No reading for me this afternoon cheas - I've got 2 of my own dc and a 2 year old to look after cause a friend is poorly. He's only been here 20 mins and had said Why and Why not about a 100 times already . I've forgotten very fast what toddlers are like.

Will post properly tomorrow! Waves to everyone