Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Living overseas

Whether you're considering emigrating or an expat abroad, you'll find likeminds on this forum.

Die Kaffeestube Teil 2 - virtual Kaffeeklatsch in Germany and Austria

951 replies

cheaspicks · 22/08/2012 09:57

Chat for those living in a German-speaking country, or anyone else who is interested.

OP posts:
Ploom · 14/09/2012 06:30

Aw ds2 has just gone to get the bus to school - he looks so little. But dd & ds1 were excited about looking after him & showing him where to wait etc so I think he'll be fine. They were all awake really early this morning - the novelty hasnt worn off yet. So i've now got till 10.30 to myself Grin. My exciting plans are to go for a walk then do some housework! Will definitely appreciate the silence tho!

Waves to everyone!!!

LinzerTorte · 14/09/2012 06:44

I've just commented on your FB status Ploom - I'm feeling the same way as DS looked so little walking off down the road with DD2 this morning! But they only have to go just down the road to his friend's house (no roads to cross) and then his friend's mum will take them all to school.

Must get on with some work now, which inevitably didn't arrive until after the DC had got home yesterday. I was hoping to get it done in the evening but our modem keeps playing up in the evenings so we had no Internet connection. Typical - it would have been an ideal evening for working too, with DH away.

admylin · 14/09/2012 07:10

linzer it's so annoying isn't it - ours was off all afternoon and night just when dh wanted to book a flight and pay the registration fee for his meeting.

Aww, so cute all those mini school dc going off to school isn't it. Turning point for everyone involved. Enjoy before they turn into teenagers!

cheaspicks · 14/09/2012 13:16

world I think with the distribution of kids per class that dd is likely to end up in the class above at some point regardless (not that I would want for her to wait to start school until 7.3 anyway, plus there are two older 3 yos living next door and next-door-but-one who are likely to go to the same Grundschule). I don't really understand it fully, but there are 15 dc in dd's group and (always) 20 in the Vorschul group, so some shuffling is inevitable to make the numbers add up.

On a slightly related note, I was at the official opening of the newly built Kinderkrippe today, which will take 1-2 yos and feed into our kiga. Apparently they already have applications for 2015, ie. for kids that haven't actually been conceived yet Hmm. i wouldn't wish fertility problems on anyone, but...

jenny these extreme differences in temp during one day make it difficult to dress kids, don't they? One day last week I took dd to kiga on my bike wearing fleece-lined ski gloves and two jackets and had to leave a pair of shorts there for her to change into as the forecast was for 28 deg.

ploom glad the school start is going well. Hope you enjoyed your bit of time to yourself this morning.

Hi, everyone else!

OP posts:
TheEnglishWomanInTheAttic · 14/09/2012 13:52

Flaky internet connections are very annoying admylin and Linzer - ours was totally rubbish, slow and unreliable for the first 3 years we lived here (despite my conditions of moving including broadband - like the other 2 conditions of being close to Munich and shop and school/ kindergarten within walking distance no such thing eapplied when we actually arrived at the house). The cabling (or whatever) was extended to our village a couple of years ago though so we have "real" broadband now and the service is much improved.

Cheaspics applications for children who haven't been conceived yet Shock I've heard of putting your child-to-be down for popular nurseries and even private schools pretty much as soon as you get a BFP, but not of applying for a child who you are merely planning to ttc!! Even without actual fertility problems doesn't it take an average of 6 months to conceive, so you still wouldn't know when your potential child would turn 12 months...

I am feeling very disorganised and out of control today, no actual idea why... Don't feel ready for the kids birthdays next week especially as DH is getting worried about money and deciding we need to be really careful - he says I buy too many little bits for the kids (prompted by the fact I bought each of them a ?5 pair of gloves yesterday) and it adds up (which of course it does but it makes the whole birthday thing hard if he decides exactly now that we can't afford anything but essentials for a while, though I do see his point as we have had a lot of outgoings recently and there is still the oil tank to fill up for winter...) DS needs more long trousers for winter, my parents are over from tomorrow and I'm going to have to let my mum take him shopping - she likes to be asked and has plenty of money, but I can hardly stand it as if I ever accept her offers to buy the kids stuff she exacts her repayment in constantly reminding me for weeks and months afterwards, asking all the time about the things she's bought and whether they are being used/ enjoyed etc. and needing to be thanked not once but seven, eight, nine times...

worldcitizen · 14/09/2012 19:00

cheas I am trying to imagine those little ones Smile. Starting 1st grade at the age of 7.3 wasn't so uncommon not too long ago for children to start that late, but will all these changes and reforms now the goal is to start much earlier so 6.3 is just totally fine, those used to be the summer children who were always the youngest in class and depending on personality of the child, yes even during the first year it was obvious they are the youngest, but they all manage fine.
I personally love the system of starting in a KiGa and then move through the ranks so to speak and start Vorschule and then 1. Klasse together and even then stay together during the entire Grundschulzeit, IF the child is happy.

CakeBump · 14/09/2012 19:06

I've just read this on a "Primary Education" thread about reading:

"you shouldn't make comparisons about speed of learning to read between English and German. English is much much harder to learn to read than German (hence children needing to start earlier and needing longer to acquire mastery)."

Does anyone agree with this? Seems rather a generalisation to me... I'm not trying to start a bunfight, I would just be interested to hear your views?

Hope everyone is keeping warm tonight!!

worldcitizen · 14/09/2012 19:17

cake no clue. I think the primary teachers here might have a professional opinion or anyone else personal experience.
I however cannot imagine this to be relevant for the child learning to read as they have no comparison and this also has nothing to do with cognitive abilities at certain ages/stages, me thinks?!

Reading later (compared to many other countries) in Germany or German school system has more to do with educational philosophies and wanting to deliberately delay the starting age based on those beliefs.
However I can ensure you that many parents from other countries who are used to something else and who feel very uncomfortable with this approach do not care and teach their children on their own regardless of recommendations or rather "orders" not to do so as the primary school teacher wouldn't like it or the child then would be bored due to being ahead etc.

LinzerTorte · 14/09/2012 20:49

cheas Shock at applications for children who haven't even been conceived! No pressure on the parents then...

English We're probably the other way round and I'm more careful with money than DH is; I would rather just buy them things for birthdays and other "occasions", whereas he'll buy them bits and pieces for no particular reason. Nothing very expensive but you're right, it does all add up.

Cake I can't say I've noticed any difference between the DC learning to read English and German. DD1 has struggled with both (dyslexia-related), DD2 found both fairly easy and DS (not a fluent reader yet) seems to be somewhere in between but doesn't appear to be picking up one language more easily than the other.

world Oh, I used to get so fed up with the comments that DD2 would be bored when she started school as she could already read and write. I couldn't have stopped her, though; she wanted to learn to read and write alongside DD1 and always did DD1's homework with her. And she's never been bored at school either; I think a child who's struggling to keep up is far more likely to "switch off" and lose interest.

worldcitizen · 14/09/2012 21:03

Linzer
I think a child who's struggling to keep up is far more likely to "switch off" and lose interest

I absolutely agree. Also. it so doesn't make sense, as in one way it is supposedly all about individuality and accepting the different learning speeds and varied interests etc. BUT in the case of when and how to learn reading it is handled very stringent Confused

CakeBump · 14/09/2012 23:04

Thanks for the thoughts everyone. I thought it didn't seem right somehow and it ties in with what I've seen at school.

I expect there's all sorts of similar opinions which fly around with bilingual children...

TheEnglishWomanInTheAttic · 15/09/2012 06:57

cake DD started learning to read in English (with me) at 4 - of course she learnt more slowly, as she was 4... I do think if you wait til 6/ 7 they learn quicker, but that doesn't make either starting age intrinsically better. I never encouraged her to read in German before she started school at all, deliberately and because I didn't want to teach anything incorrectly in German, but she has picked German reading up really easily and her teacher raised no negative points at all on her first class report despite her being the youngest child in the class - she started a week before her 6th birthday, and has now started 2nd class but won't turn 7 til next week.

On the other hand Ds1 will turn 5 next week and has absolutely no interest in learning to read - he can write his own name and he can recognise the names of several of his friends, and of both his siblings, and few letters, but I have offered to teach him to read and he says not yet. He would have just started reception in the UK and would be one of the oldest in the class, but I am quite glad he has more time and doesn't have to start school yet. He is clever enough (he recognises all his numbers and can count up to 100 and can add) but he just isn't interested.

I think writing is a more problematic thing than reading actually if children start before they are ready - DD could draw exceptionally well at 3 - she was drawing people with bodies and detailed clothing and shoes, distinctive hair, all their features etc. at only just 3, and I look at pictures she did then, and there is one on the wall she copied from our wedding photo and it is still streets ahead of what DS1 could do now at nearly 5, his pictures are like DD's at about 2.5 and it's all down to pen control I think - although he holds his pencil correctly he just doesn't have the fine motor skills, so again I think he would find it frustrating being forced to learn to write more than his name on a daily basis).

DS1 and Dd are both late Sept birthdays but we let DD start school at nearly 6, whereas we have already decided to keep DS1 back til he is nearly 7 (we have told Kindergarten not to put him into the Vorschule group for small group activities so he will hopefully never realise he has been held back) - he still won't be the oldest in the class, there are kids up to 18 months older than DD in her class and nothing negative is said about it.

I am aware it can be the wrong decision either way though, starting too early or too late can be problematic, looking at the example of DH's brother who was doing his other brother's homework at age 3, but in those days wasn't allowed to start school til age 7 and was terribly bored and never engaged with school at all, and ended up leaving after 9th class, dropping out of his apprenticeship, and has done various manual jobs since, though he has just recently (age 26) gone back on a scheme to finish the apprenticeship... Could be nothing to do with when he started school and just his personality though!

LinzerTorte · 15/09/2012 06:58

Yes, I take those theories about bilingual children being later to speak with a pinch of salt, based on my very unscientific sample of three! (DD1 was average, DD2 early, DS late but caught up quickly.) Although I have the feeling it might have been scientifically proven...

TheEnglishWomanInTheAttic · 15/09/2012 07:03

Oh DD does find English spelling much harder than German though - English is much more irregular isn't it? She does really well with German spelling and barely makes any mistakes, but the same can certainly not be said for her English - mind you that could also be because she hates me to correct her spelling so I rarely do, even though she writes a lot in English for fun (little stories, notes, pretend party invitations and theatre production flyers...) her spelling is pretty bad, whereas she totally accepts having to spell perfectly at school...

I am not convinced about bi-lingual kids talking late either, which everybody says is true, but all mine have talked earlier, more fluently and more clearly than the majority of their peers, and other parents always comment on it - could be because their peers are Bayrish Land Kinder though, and parents seem not to chat with their toddlers in the same way here, just instructions or baby talk til age 3 it seems, so they haven't much chance of talking properly until Kindergarten! :o

LinzerTorte · 15/09/2012 07:57

Oh yes, DD1 struggles hugely with English spelling - but she's dyslexic and has struggled with German too (not to the same extent, admittedly; her German has always been comprehensible, whereas her English often still isn't). And we've put a huge amount of work into getting her German up to scratch, whereas I haven't bothered with her written English much until now as I thought she had enough to cope with otherwise. DD2, on the other hand, has no problems with either English or German spelling and rarely makes mistakes in either language. So I shall reserve judgment until DS has started writing. Grin

worldcitizen · 15/09/2012 08:01

Good morning,

the theory about bi-lingual children talking later, is more meant to be a thought to consider, IF the child speaks later or less than other peers around, so then a bi-lingual environment should/must be considered one important factor when a paediatrician or other medical/pedagogic professional to include in the assessment. However all other factors must be taken into consideration, which are mostly ranked higher in importance than bi-lingual environment.

Children who are only children have a much higher tendency to speak later, if not in childcare/Krippe from an early age, but some of the only-children do the exact opposite.

worldcitizen · 15/09/2012 08:05

Linzer and English

it does not surprise me at all, that the children find English spelling harder as even though they are growing up in English-speaking households, the effect of growing up in a different language environment different from the family language is immense. And as reading and to an even much greater extent spelling is so connected to everyday use of language and to what is being heard etc. it does not surprise me at all, in fact it makes very much sense.

admylin · 15/09/2012 08:43

Dd is also dyslexic and has really improved since her therapy started for German (firts lesson after the summer break and therapist said she noticed a huge improvement). Funnily enough, she has French and English as foreign languages and she can somehow spell in French better than in English!

TheEnglishWomanInTheAttic · 15/09/2012 11:10

admylin what age did she start French?

world that's funny, I would have thought only children at home with a parent would speak earlier and with a better vocabulary than those from bigger families or in child care due to the focussed 1:1 with an adult all day... Certainly my eldest was streets ahead of the boys in terms of speech at comparable ages - but then there is also the girl v boy thing there. I found I had to remember to talk to DC2 though because the natural inclination was to talk to his sister, because she could answer, and I thought that might be partly why his speech was not as fluent as fast as hers (but she was speaking in clear sentences at 20 months, he was also pretty quick with speech, just not AS quick).

It's funny DD was streets ahead of her peers til she turned 3 or so, but she's fairly ordinary now, I wonder if I stopped paying attention or if it would have been that way anyway! I'm sure I've read more very high achievers are only children! Or perhaps I made that up...

CakeBump · 15/09/2012 11:12

English yes I see that with the spelling of the children in my class, although of course it makes sense that the German children naturally are inclined to spell English words "Germanically".

I see lots of "I like to du my homework" and "sch" where there should just be "sh". Actually when its really incomprehensible it's more likely to be "I lick too du miy homwerck" :)

Of course the non-native German speakers are less likely to make these mistakes as German spelling doesn't come so naturally to them. I suppose it depends which is the stronger of the two "bilingual" languages.

TheEnglishWomanInTheAttic · 15/09/2012 11:14

word DD reads, and certainly is read to, much more in English, so I don't think that accounts for her spelling - her English passive vocabulary (understanding) is definitely ahead of her English, which is why I want to encourage her to read more in German. Part of the problem is that it is almost always me who reads to the kids, even when I teach evening classes and DH puts them to bed he has a terrible tendency to let them watch an extra half hour of TV instead of bedtime stories!

TheEnglishWomanInTheAttic · 15/09/2012 11:15

d'oh - World not word and English passive vocab is ahead of her German

worldcitizen · 15/09/2012 11:16

English with only children it is either way, BUT they do have a tendency to start later, but then when they start have lots of available vocabulary, very quickly develop speech in full sentences etc.
For only children there is usually NO NEED to speak as child and parent get each other at blink, and parent has more time or availability to pay attention and look at the child, so child doesn't even need to be so vocal as it's already understood what they want or need.

TheEnglishWomanInTheAttic · 15/09/2012 11:18

cake dd doesn't make those type of German to English mistakes - here's something particularly badly spelt which is lying in front of me in English:

Mummy wos the hoh nais? Ten wai dont you woth the nezt one The 4 ferees a day bithor my birthday? doo you went too?

worldcitizen · 15/09/2012 11:18

Reading, THE most wonderful thing for language development and later success and ease in reading themselves, spelling and articulation.

You can tell I am such a believer in reading Smile