Selling house and tenants refusing to let agents in to do viewings and have changed locks

[Egg]

Hi does anyone have any advice.

We own a house in London and let it out to tenants who have been there since October last year.

Ten days ago we were advised by the Estate Agents that the tenants do not wish to renew as they have "found places that are cheaper".

So we decided to ask the agents to value it with a view to selling it. It was valued at a decent price so we decided to go ahead and put it on the market. For clarification, the same Estate Agents who do the letting are now the ones marketing it for sale.

In the Tenancy Agreement it says that the tenants have to allow "reasonable access" for viewings for the two months prior to vacation. The tenants are being very dificult and have said that, at best, they will only allow access one day per week, and this can only be midweek, not a weekend.

Obviously the agent has said this is not acceptable and has tried to come to an agreement that viewings can take place on one weekday and Saturdays (which is still not ideal).

The tenant has now informed the agent that they have changed the locks.

The tenants have a baby who I think is around six months old. From what I can gather, this is the main reason they are being difficult as they think the viewings will disrupt the baby. Whilst I can understand this, surely they have no legal right to deny access like this? I would have more sympathy for them if it was not them who had decided not to renew the tenancy.

Sorry for being long winded, did not want to miss out any vital info!

Anyone got any advice / experience?

hiya egg, i wondered if it was you when i read the thread title.

my gut would be to get all kick ass about it. viewings before end of tenancy are quite standard when you are renting and changing the locks is completley out of order. we just signed a contract with new tenants in the flat we used to live in in streatham. they'd read it thoroughly and asked us to cross out a couple of clauses which we did. it's a contract ffs - read it first and dont sign it if you dont agree to abide by.

i guess my next thing then is to say that if you can stomach six extra weeks or so without rental income then i would leave it. you're in the right but following that through will be the far more stressful option. their high-handed approach to things will bite them in the ass at some point in future. why get stressed being the one to do the biting??

(i meant to say a special ty for the cheesy pasta btw - and sorry it got left )

umm
either they are a little stressed!! or you/the agent has done something to really piss them off.

changing the locks is not on so I would do what stopping has said however to put another perspective on things a lot depends on your definition of reasonable IMHO no viewings after 6 is unreasonable EA do loads of viewings after 6 when do people who work look round places? etc etc however to you as a parent it seems reasonable, they presumably expected you to carry on renting and therefore either what 5 people go round shortly before they left or for no one to go round and you to sort the place out after they had left. Instead they have some EA (and you only need to open a couple of posts on here to see how they can p%£s people off) phoning repeatedly and wanting to bring every Tom Dick and Harry tramping through all hours of the day and night-maybe that's how it seemed)

FWIW I rent too and none of our landlords have tried to bring prospective tenants round and we have rarely seen a place with someone in it.

I think you should wait until they move and take the hit on the rent TBH

They do have the right to change the locks and do not have to give a key to the landlord whilst they are still living in the property. However they must return the keys to the landlord on leaving - so long as this is done I don't think there is any right for the landlord to deduct the money for changing the locks again from the deposit.

What you have to remember is that they pay rent in order to have the full use of the property and are not obliged to allow viewings at all, whatever the tenancy agreement says. Any clause to that effect is basically unenforceable. See here for more information.

Thanks again to everyone for the advice.

reallytired we are not intending to evict them . And we are certainly not even considering getting a court order. I just asked if anyone had similar experiences or advice.

They have been asked to suggest when it is convenient for viewings to take place. Apparently it is never convenient. I think they have quite recently been on holiday so unlikely they will be away any time soon, and in any case, nobody can get in to do a viewing if they are not there as they have apparently CHANGED THE LOCKS and nobody has a key but them.

Honestly, I have done nothing wrong . I do agree with giantkatestacks though, when we were marketing the place before we moved out they would often ring and say "we've got someone here now who would love to have a look round, I don't suppose we can pop up", and obviously as we wanted to let the place I agreed, but I could have said no, but that the following day was ok, for example.

Anyhow, I really must go to bed. Thanks again to everyone who responded.

yes that's true Giantkatestacks.

Last time we were renting, I got surprised in the shower by a group of prospective viewers !

The EA had said that there "might" be viewings "that week" but nothing more specific. He rang the bell (of course) but as I was in the shower I didn't bother to get it, thinking it was a cold caller. He then let himself in with his key. Our bathroom door at the time had no lock so imagine my horror when I heard the front door open - eek!

So yes, a chat direct to the tenants and asking for scrupulous assurances from the EA may help.

But ultimately I would think easier for all concerned to wait until they've gone.

Argh I keep x posting with people.

We personally have not done anything to pee them off, we have never met or spoken with them, or had any contact. We have agreed all maintenance work requested as soon as we have been asked. The agents may of course have peed them off, but not to my knowledge.

I know that my own opinion of reasonable re: viewings is not ideal, ie not after 6pm, but I would be happy with 9am to 6pm any day of the week, including weekends, as long as I was given some notice!

QOFE thanks for the link, have had a quick look and it looks really relevant, but not had a chance to read it properly. Do they really have a right to change the locks without asking first, and not providing a key? Our last tenant also changed the locks when she moved in, but she checked first, and gave the agents a key. I know our landlords and agents have a key to the house we live in.

1dilemma last year when the property was remarketed the marketing started two months before the tenant moved out, and people were shown round without a problem (but nobody took it until after it was empty).

Anyway, typing this i have probably x posted again with people, and DH is wanting the computer, so I really am going now, will check back in morning. Thanks again .

Tenants can do a lot worse than change the locks.

I have rented a flat out for seven years and we have had one set of bad tenants. One of the tenants tried to murder the other. The neighbours reported them to social services as they were negleting their three year old. When we eventually got the property back there were human feces on the carpet.

A contract is only as good as your ablity to enforce it.

you asked for views and I simply pointed out a different way of considering what might be reasonable (maybe the agent has surprised them in the shower allready) and that it is not that uncommon not be have people being shown around despite what it says in the contract (I'm now trying to think whether we have looked round anything that had tenants in, we've looked round owner occupied switching to tenants)

there again if you want to maximise your profit maybe you should draw your own conclusions from the fact that no one took it until it was empty

I still think easiest option is to wait until they move

reallytired's post is totally wrong.

The tenants have signed up to a number of legal obligations.I'm assuming this a Standard Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement.

One of them involves them allowing reasonable access to the property by you, as the landlord. Legally, you have to only give 24 hours notice. This includes notice for contractors, essential house maintenance like gas safety checks, boilers, electrics etc.

Your tenants are acting illegally by changing the locks without your permission. You can charge them to have them changed back again from their deposit, so deduct the cost accordingly.

I personally would find out why are acting in this manner which sounds very strange indeed. Perhaps there is some dispute between themselves and your agent that you are unaware of?

We privately rent and have three children under 5. We have been with some terrible agents who do nothing about basic repairs and not even bothered to contact the landlord.

I would try to speak to them personally to come to an amicable agreement.

Alternatively, you could enforce Section 21
if they really cause trouble and do something silly like squat. I'm not advocating it as a method, just be aware you do have the power to evict using this clause if they retreat on their notice and decide to stay out.

I'm sure that with a baby they should be reasonable. Their actions are illegal.You do not need to negotiate with them on when you can do viewings - sorry but it's 24 hours notice as per contract. The agent should have informed you of this.

You can also threaten to write them a poor reference for their next prospective landlord (if they are still going to rent). This should bring them round. If you can PROVE they have committed these illegal offenses against you as a landlord- agents and landlords will steer well clear. As tenants they should be aware of this. Getting a decent place when you have a child is so important, so they are treading on very thin ice.

We were actually harassed by our previous landlord whose behviour was beyond the pale- attempting to threatening to turn off our electricity mid-winter, not replacing a broken washing machine under contract to him, removing all white goods from our contract and demanding we buy his shoddy appliances, doing one inspection after 18 months and then giving us specific times and dates for minor work like replacing light bulbs to be carried out. Criticising us for dust on OUR lampshades, never doing any basic repairs etc etc. We paid our rent on time, kept the house tidy but dared to complain about the lack of basic repairs.

The landlord placed a HUGE strain on us with the stress and it is a long story but we do actually have a strong case prepared against him prepared by a lawyer but the cost of further action is prohibitive at the moment. He never took into account that we had small children at any stage. Legally, as a landlord, you don't have to as far as I'm aware. But morally you should and you seem to be very caring regarding your tenant's needs, therefore I can see no logical reason for their actions.

We are so happy now with a good agent and excellent landlord so it was worth the hassle of mioving when we couldn't really afford to.

I know my suggestions sound heavy handed but you have more power as a landlord. Even though we were attacked on all levels, we never stopped the landlord from entering with 24 hours notice and would never have even considered changing the locks. It is within YOUR RIGHTS to have reasonable access to your property.

So reallytired- THAT is a bad landlord , not this poor woman who is sounds like she is trying to be really accommodating.

There are some good landlord forums which may be able to help and Shelter perhaps can give you advice. They are normally very good and might help you negotiate.

Good luck

Sounds to me as though the agents have put their backs up. I would strongly suggest you speak to them directly.
Estate agents are - with the greatest of respect to any Mnetter agents - mostly bullshitting prats who will tell you whatever they can get away with & rely on you not asking too many questions.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if they had told your tenants 'Mrs Egg is selling house, you have to make it available to us at all times our office is open' - or some such bollocks.

I have viewed many properties & the ones I have always had the most problem with are those which are vacant/tenanted & where the agents carry out the viewings (which I assume is the case here).

If you speak to tenants & find out its actually them not agents being the pain, i'd probably just leave it & wait til they move out. Alternatively, if its the agents causing the problem, hopefully you can smooth the problem over & get it on the market....

I've had a quick look and found out following:

It does depend on what is written in you lease but if there is nothing specific about locks, then YES a tenant can change the locks.

BUT, they HAVE to give the landlord and /or his agent a copy of the key.

This is for the purpose of reasonable access in cases of emergency, maintenance and also for viewings after 24 hours notice.

So yes, it seems your tenants have a right to change the locks, but NOT to withold a key from you for access. If they are doing this then that is illegal.

I've heard of some tenants changing the locks because landlords are entering illegally and disrupting their 'quiet enjoyment' but this is not the case with you.

So if they have not passed a key onto the agent, they need to get onto it soon as.

Perhaps the agent has let themselves and viewers into the property without proper notice and the tenants are fed up? Especially when they have a baby, you know how pushy agents can be- "can we just pop round"?

sorry to be a pain Queenoffuckingeverything but I've checked my information on 4 different references sites and you MUST give you landlord or agent a key of you change the locks.#

It makes sense really- the house remains always the landlord's property and they would have to have a key for emergencies, repairs etc. The landlord is also responsible for things like sewage, guttering and the boiler so yes, absolutely would need a key.

OP I hope you got the answers here somewhere! I just wanted to clarify (for everyone not nec you) about what it says in the agreement and what you can "practically" do.

Yes I am sure it says that the tenants are not allowed to change the locks. btw its not illegal to change them (ie criminal) its simply against the terms of the agreement.

The overiding assumption when you grant a residential tenancy is that you are providing a home, The tenants therefore have a higher right to the house than you do. Its only when the term has expired that you can usually take proceedings for no real reason (ie section 21).

Obviously if they misbehave in some ways there are grounds for possession, however most of these are discretionary and up to the Judge to decide if the breach of the agreement is serious enough to warrant a possession order.

In 11 years of practice I can honestly say that I have never seen a possession order (or even a claim for possession) based upon changed locks.

In an ideal world the Landlord should have emergency access, however if it were truly needed the door being locked would be no problem - fire brigades have no issue with this! Any damage to locks would be deducted from agreement as tenant had breached by not providing keys.

Once you take possession back, assuming you don't get keys you are quite within your rights to charge the tenants for the cost of changing the locks.

OP my advice as before is to speak to the agents, and then write to the T's to remind them of their obligations. Failing that get the agents to market as best they can before the T's are out.

If you are confident as to the condition of the property they could hold an open day at the house at some point afterwards, marketing that now should help.

Just a final caveat, if the tenants decide not to go you will need to take proceedings to evict them (i'm sure you know) these would most likely be based upon section 21 and are not quick (despite being called accelereated) If you have already served a valid notice then you could be looking at a bailiff appointment after about 8 weeks. If a section 21 hasn't been served then add another 2 months.

Hope it all goes ok

stoppingat3 is completely right tenants can be a total and utter nightmare if they choose to be. The law is completely on the side of the tenant.

A contract is only as good as your ablity to enforce it. The tenants are breaking a civil contract and not criminal law. Even if you are awarded costs, its a joke as its next to impossible to force a tenant to pay even if there is a CCJ against them.

If the tenants change the locks they are not obliged to provide a key to the landlord. However, should the landlord then need to force entry in an emergency, they can claim the cost of repair from the tenant if a key had not been provided. I can't find anything that states keys must be given to the landlord - an important reason for the right to change locks is that if the landlord is entering illegally the tenant can change the locks to prevent this. An obligation to provide a key would make the right to change locks to ensure quiet enjoyment a bit pointless.

They have the right to 'quiet enjoyment' of the property - basically, as stoppingat3 says, their right to the property is greater than yours whilst they are in legal occupation. If you wish to enter you have to give at least 24 hours notice, but they have the right to refuse entry and if they do there's not much you can do about it without a court order. The only time entry can be forced is in an emergency.

Even if the tenancy agreement states that the locks may not be changed, or that viewings must be permitted, this is simply unenforceable - any term that gives tenants less rights than statute gives is an unfair term and will not be upheld in court.

Hi thanks everyone there's a lot for me to read here! Have been out most of morning and then on phone to agents.

Apparently they did manage to gain access to do a viewing yesterday as tenant did let them in (had not heard back from agent when I started thread) and the viewing went well, although the agents have requested another one on Thursday and have not heard back yet.

I think the situation is not as dire as I thought, and I have a feeling they may be annoyed as, tbh, the managing agent who is in charge of our property has been less than helpful to us (had me in tears once with her bad attitude when she caught me on a bad day), so they may have had similar issues.

Anyway, thanks again for all the advice, I don't think we will have any problems with them refusing to leave, I think they are keen to get away asap. I hope I have not given landlords a bad name , everything has always been done through the managing agents and we have ok'd every single last petty maintenance issue they have requested (even for some reason saying we would agree to pay for someone to go in and remove the three picture hooks and get them "made good" at great expense, no idea why they couldn't just leave them there or remove them themselves).

Honeydew - just re-read your post, now your old landlord does sound hideous! You poor things!

Oh and Swotty [waves], hello, your DD was more than welcome to the (uneaten) pasta! In exchange we got her much coveted blue Tommy Tippee cup . I will return it at our Christmas piss up meal .

Saw the thread title and thought it must be you! What a PITA. Me and the boy will head round and sort them out for you.

Hello Gill . How is your lovely small boy today? All my little darlings are asleep, although biggest one keeps waking up to catch a glimpse of Neighbours!

When DH and I were flat hunting many moons ago we saw two almost identical flats for sale in a large mansion block. One flat had tenants in and was slightly cheaper. The other flat was vacant.

We bought the vacant flat because we were nervous about any complications that could occur if the tenants did not move out.

Plus when the tenants showed us round the first flat they had the guest bathroom crammed to the ceiling with junk so you couldn't actually get in it!

My advice would be to wait until the tenants move out before you market the flat if at all possible.

Hi Egg- thanks for you symapthy- it was utterly appalling! We were incredibly stressed and it as a huge toll on our mental well being for about 6 months.

I have never experienced anythingn like it before. Our landlord just took a dislike to us because I complained that he would not replace out washing machine when it broke.

We were actually harassed out of the property and since then it has been up on the market again. The man had a poor reputation for causing argument with the neighbours so it wasn't just us.

Just a quickie - if our landlord wanted to sell our house, I'd be happy to allow access but would expect notice and negotiation. So... having to vacate every wednesday would piss me off but if the agent rang up on Monday morning to get a list of times that would be suitable I'd be more than happy.

I had a landlord who sold the flat I was living in whose agents were appalling - they used to ring me when they were already on the way to the flat. I used to get so angry because I'd have left in the morning not knowing strangers would be wandering around so wouldn't have put private things like underwear or cheque books and bank statements away. It wasn't that I minded them turning up, I minded them refusing to give me notice or not turning up when they said they would.

Sounds like your agent may not have been communicating so helpfully with your tenants and they're feeling a bit browbeaten? I know you're supposed to do it all through the agents but we've had problems with ours in the past and frankly I would have welcomed a call from the actual landlord to get the info first hand.

sorry Egg I hope I haven't put up misleading information.

It would appear that as a tenant, you CAN change the locks and NOT give the landlord a key- due to a right to 'quiet enjoyment'.

So I was wrong here. Also, a tenant does NOT have to give you entry after 24 hours notice. They can refuse altogether and you can only enter in an emergency and break the door down with the help of the Fire Brigade!

So basically, if they do all this, your tenants have broken a civil agreement, not an legal one. They are therefore not acting illegally by witholding entry and a key.

But what you can do in response is to issue a court order to have them removed as they have twice broken the terms of their agreement. So you can do a 'Section 21'. So they lose in the end because they will be evicted.

I would hope that the agent should now inform them of their obligations and the consequences of breaking the terms of the agreement.

It does sound like the agent has got has upset them, otherwise why be so drastic as to change the locks when you have a new baby?
Perhaps change your agent- she upset you as well! Estate Agents on the whole are on the whole abysmal in their treatments of tenants. The one we have now is actually a Letting Agent, not an estate agent and they are so far, superb. Best I've ever had- professional, friendly and efficient.

If ever you rent again, perhaps consider using a smaller, letting agency that know more about lettings and the law. I can recommend them as a tenant.

Bests of luck with you tenants, I'm sure it will work out. Apologies for my error in my assumptions yesterday. Qeenof fuckingeverything was right and it has really surprised me that in reality tenants can just do whatever they like to a property. They will eventually face eviction but are able in law to just disrespect at will another's home.

Unless a landlord is breaking their own contract by entering a property without the tenant's agreed knowledge and consent, it beggers belief how it is legal for a tenant to just change the locks and keep the keys!

I'm astounded.

"They will eventually face eviction but are able in law to just disrespect at will another's home."

It may be the landlord's property, but when I'm renting (as I am at present) it's my home.

If anyone wants to let out or rent a property I really recommned you use an ARLA registered letting agent. Their agents have to pass exams to show they know what they are doing.

Ofcourse a rented property is the tenant's home. If a landlord becomes sentimental about a rented propety its a disaster.