£ intended for sons but not in their name

[BringBackCatsEyes]

FIL has an account set up with a name e.g. For Charlie.

It is in FIL's name, but clearly intended for Charlie.
£10 a month has been put in this account for years and has a few thousand.

I have POA for FIL. Has has gone through all his assets on care and is now being LA funded.

Will the council regard this account as his asset or allow it to be left to Charlie?

The context - there are 3 such accounts. 2 for my sons and 1 for SILs son - the three grandchildren.
SIL (also with POA) wants to give the £ to the boys now.
I am wary - would be be seen as moving assets if FIL dies in next few years?

Yes, we could ask a lawyer, but that'll probably cost more than the value of the accounts.

If my sons get a bit of £ from their grandad then great, but I don't want to risk doing something wrong.

It sounded like he wanted to hedge his bets (so he could have it if he needed it)

That's not a very nice thing to say and I don't know why you would think that based on what I have said.

Thank you @godmum56
I will read the Age Concern info later this evening.
SIL is hard to talk to about these things.
I hadn't considered removing myself as POA but I will think about that.

I'll come back to this later, it's occupied a lot of my mind today and I need to shelve it and get on with other things.

I was saying it could be one of two reasons - either he wanted to hedge his bets, or he didn’t realise the implications. I’m not being mean, I don’t know him - and the bottom line is that it was a very generous thing of him to do. But the fact that he has retained control over the accounts is the issue (so they are still in essence his savings) - and he obviously did this for some reason - do you know what the reason was?

He may well make that decision, that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be considered deprivation of assets.

There’s two issues - is moving money in this way something a PoA can do (this would be a question even if FIL had loads of money and was realistically able to self fund care for years), and does this count as deprivation of assets (this would be a question even if FIL was making his own financial decisions).

I suspect the only thing to be done is to leave those accounts sitting there, because if they are under the £14k threshold total (for all of his savings) then they shouldn’t impact upon care funding. When he passes away, then presumably the funds in the accounts can then be passed onto the grandchildren at that stage, either under the terms of the will, or through a variation (agreed by all beneficiaries)? Which would be honouring his kind intention. Again, I’m not a lawyer (but have some experience as executor for my late dh’s estate).

for the nth time, ITS TOO LATE. He kept hold, and control of the money and naming the account means nothing because it remained UNDER HIS COMPLETE DIRECT CONTROL. Yes I am shouting. Do you think that if I kept a million pounds in my bank account in a sub account named "for my niece" that the council would go "oh okay then, we won't count that as a part of your assets?

finally some commonsense! Additionally there might be things that he will need in the res care and also sadly a funeral to eventually be paid for.

I am guessing that it was simply something that didn't cross his mind..... He thought it was a kind thing to do, it wasn't huge amounts of money he was putting in there each month. He might not have considered the implications so far as needing council provided care goes, most people don't and as we have seen on here, many many people don't understand the ramifications of council funding. Also I suspect that he didn't expect there to be such a big disagreement between his two POA's

If I remember correctly, according to my late df’s solicitor, paying for a funeral plan upfront is not seen as deprivation of assets in terms of the financial assessment for care; these can cost around £6k, depending upon requirements etc. Might be worth Op considering this if there are other savings in addition to the ‘for the grandchildren’ accounts (especially if those other savings would take it all above the £14k threshold).. Op should take advice on this though, if relevant..

Right now, I don’t think it’s wise me talking to my SIL about her father’s funeral costs!

If she doesn’t have confidence in me being POA then (as a PP advised) I’ll offer to stand down. She can then do as she wishes and I will sleep better at night.

This is the main point.

If you have POA, you can only use FIL's money for his own benefit. Giving money to someone else would not benefit him in any way. It doesn't matter what you believe his intentions were, what he did in the past or what he might do if he were compos mentis.

It's tough when attorneys disagree. My DP has a similar situation as POA for my FIL who has dementia. The other attorneys are DP's siblings. While they all have good intentions, they don't always see eye to eye. There have been a couple of times when DP had to block them from doing something unlawful by threatening to resign.

I think that is one where "It depends". If that payment took the person's assets below the threshhold for council funding, then they might well argue that its a deprivation, additionally if the planned prepaid funeral was going to be a lavish one, that might lend weight to the deprivation argument. Over the time I worked, I saw the council that I worked for get tighter and tighter over assessment because they had to make the funding stretch further and further while remaining within the law. They are actually constrained by law to make the best use of public monies. I know this sounds awful. The social workers who I dealt with did not like to see the process toughened up at all.

Thanks @godmum56 - so an issue worth taking local advice on, perhaps (if it were relevant re: total savings pot) @BringBackCatsEyes

Been to running club - chakras are back in alignment.
I will do nothing for the moment - not engage further with SIL.
I am hoping she is sharing my feelings with her husband as he is pretty level headed and will tell her she's being ridiculous in asking me to hand over my card and PIN.
Standing down as POA would be a bit knee jerk if I do that now, but I will keep that in mind.

Thanks for the space to vent!

you are welcome and I think thats a good outcome for now. I agree about standing down and kneejerk...that's pretty much ther nuclear option.