private CCTV public land

[Happyjoe]

Hiya, I was wondering if anything can be done? A man (who is a tad odd too) moved into a social house and parks his car in a church/council ran car park instead of the car park on his street, which is next road along, but can be accessed easily by foot on a path that runs between the streets.

The side of his house is onto the church land and council-run car park. It's no longer a church but a community centre, where I do voluntary gardening. The camera is pointing at his car but is also going to be capturing by default the comings and goings to the church/community centre, including a lot of children going to ballet classes, kids clubs etc and some members who come to groups run for more vulnerable members of our community. Am pretty sure the entrance of the church is being recorded too because of the angle and that the camera rather close.

Is there any expectation to privacy at all? There is a tiny sign on the wall saying about CCTV, very high up but no information of what he is doing with the data, who he is etc.
I was always of the understanding that filming public places should be limited (unless council run) and people can expect some sort of privacy. I presume that may not extend to a carpark? How can we know what he is doing with that information he is recording? I am uneasy about asking him direct as he is rather unpredictable and has an aggressive streak.

Any help be really appreciated. Thankyou.

I think you can contact the ICO.and I think You can definitely request all the footage he has of you, repeatedly

Thankyou, so I need to make myself a pain in the backside to him? Grins.

@Happyjoe I thought personal cameras could only record within your own property? Ours doesn’t extend to recording beyond our curtiledge. I’d check this because your management committee and owner of parking land should not agree to a camera recording folk on their land. It’s spying on people without their permission.

I’m attaching the ICO advice on surveillance of public spaces. He’s not likely to comply with the law so you really must complain to your management committee. A council using a camera is different. He needs consent from everyone who is caught on the camera as far as I can see because it’s filming in a public space and that’s not possible so the camera should be removed.

Thankyou, that's what I thought but it seems it's not law, more guidance? It's kinda strange trying to find out as one website says its fine, others say it's not. That's why came on mumsnet to see if anyone knew!

If it is illegal, why do the Police request footage from such cameras when there has been a crime, car accident etc?

Ah, that is ace, thanks! I couldn't find that on the ICO. Not sure who management committee are, any idea if I complain to the ICO or council? He's in council property.

@TheNightingalesStarling The police consult legitimate cameras put up by them or councils which meet the legal requirements. Random ones put up by random people don’t have the legal status and are snooping.

@Happyjoe I’d speak to whoever runs the council and the church. If the parking regulations are displayed by the council, I’d contact them. Legitimate cameras must have a legitimate public good. The ICO (Information Commissioner) has useful info. There’s also concerns over what’s being done with the images - storage and wiping it.

@OhDear111
Thankyou! I will do.

I'm afraid some of what @OhDear111 has said is incorrect.

Personal cameras are not restricted to recording within the owner's property. Owners should position CCTV cameras to only capture their own property where possible. If they do, they are not subject to data protection law. However, if the CCTV captures someone else's property or a public space, data protection law applies.

In this case, data protection law clearly applies. However, the CCTV owner does not need the consent of everyone caught on the camera if he can show that he has a legitimate interest in installing the CCTV. It appears he is concerned his car might be stolen and wants to capture any theft or attempted theft. That is a legitimate interest that allows him to record a public space without the consent of those caught on camera. This is covered in the ICO's guidance, which says:

"In many cases, the CCTV owner will have one or more ‘legitimate reasons’ to collect personal information through CCTV. Often, this will be to protect themselves, their family and property. This means that they don’t need the consent of anyone that is recorded by the camera. However, the CCTV owner must be able to demonstrate that their interests outweigh any invasion of privacy for others."

For the CCTV to be legal, the owner needs to:

• have a clear reason for using it (which I think he does in this case)
• make sure the CCTV is not capturing more than he needs (which may be an issue in this case but, without seeing the footage, it is impossible to be sure. If, as you suspect, he is recording people going in and out of the church, that would clearly be too much)
• let people know he is using CCTV (he may need a clearer sign and the sign should, in my view, include contact details)
• if someone who has been captured by the CCTV requests, provide them with the relevant portion of the recording on request
• delete the footage regularly or automatically (or both)
• stop recording a person if they object to being recorded and there is no legitimate reason to record them (only really relevant in this case if he is capturing more of the area than he needs to record anyone attempting to steal his car)

You can complain to the ICO if you think he isn't following the rules, but it is unlikely they will do any more than write to him asking him to comply with the rules. It is highly unlikely they will take enforcement action against him.

It would be for the owners of the land being recorded (council/church) to go through the procedure of objecting to the cameras. I’ll be honest, I used to run children’s dance classes at a school & if I found that a neighbour (rather than a legitimate business with a data protection policy & officer) was recording all our comings and goings I would be looking to find alternative premises.

so the church safeguarding people really should be on this. The person may have a legitimate interest but this could be mitigated by rescinding permission to park there for instance (it’s unclear from your post who exactly owns the car oars & if it’s pay & display for anyone or onky for chu4ch users)

@prh47bridge I said a private camera should capture their own property but “where possible” is ludicrous in this case. He’s recording a car park he doesn’t own. There’s no “where possible” as he doesn’t want to record his own property at all. So data protection law applies as he’s recording a car park he doesn’t own. It’s a legitimate interest for a council to record the car park, not an indicidual as it’s capturing children! It’s clearly capturing more than he needs! The op for a start and all car park users. His car won’t outweigh their “rights” or everyone would have private street cameras if they park on the street.

He should lobby for a council camera if he’s concerned or use a steering wheel lock! Most people would say being filmed in a public car park by an individual is not acceptable. As it wouldn’t be if you filmed a street because your car was 50 ft from your front door. The council should be contacted.

my camera records beyond my curtilage and into my neighbour's property. Its unavoidable. When I checked, what I had to do (and have done) is get her permission to do this.

Thankyou for all your replies, I appreciate them a lot.
Sounds like have nothing to lose by complaining.. worth a try.

The carpark is by a churchyard and it was unclear who owned it until recently, when the streetlights were fixed by the council. Due to age, there was no deeds or details we could find. We now presume it is council owned as a tussle between council and church over the streetlights issue went on for a while. No pay and display and no parking restrictions on any signs. I often wish they'd ask for pay and display because it would stop a lot of issues.

I have since heard that a different neighbour has parked where he normally is as he was out, and he is incredibly angry and threatening over it, despite not having any designated space to himself. This is what I mean, he is not someone to mess with lightly.

I have CCTV which captures the pavement, all checked and agreed fine by the police
its due to numerous incidents with teenagers

That’s not true, the only times I’ve ever replayed my personal CCTV is when the police have knocked on the door asking to see it. It’s happened 4 or 5 times over the 6 years have lived here. They’ve sat and watched the recording with me, taken recordings with them on a USB drive and never once said I should adjust it because it covers the road in front of my house as well as my own curtilage.

Who much privacy do you expect out in public/the street?

Presumably he could sit in the street and watch the comings and goings and no one could tell I'm he can't?

What do you think he's doing with the footage?

@Happyjoe So I would definitely contact the council. It’s not ok to go around filming people who don’t know they are being filmed! As the ICO says, we need trust and organisations alert people to the presence of the cameras.

The police really don’t check private cameras overlooking car parks but that doesn’t mean it should be there. It’s almost certainly not a vandal hangout either. The attached is the relevant info.

@OhDear111 - Like it or not, he has a legitimate interest in protecting his car. If he is recording more than is necessary to protect his car, that is an issue. However, the rules are as I laid out in my post. You are quite wrong to say that he cannot attach a camera to his house for this purpose. And yes, if he was parking in the street, he could legitimately set up a camera to cover his car and the immediate surrounding area, but not the whole street.

I don't know what you think the council will do.

The guidance you have quoted in your most recent post is aimed at organisations using CCTV. It is not relevant to individuals who attach CCTV to their property.

Siting and watching on the street is different from it being recorded? There are young children, children in ballet clothes and vulnerable people going to some group meetings there. It's a community centre, as stopped being a church in the 1970's.

@prh47bridge I’m afraid you are incorrect on this occasion. See attached from ICO. Once someone records a public space, data protection law applies. The property the camera owner lives in is a council property. Also the op has said it’s a council owned car park so start asking them if they are ok with children being filmed in that car park by an individual who, by the way, is filming when he’s out in the car!

Info

I have said that data protection law applies. I have explained how it applies. My posts are correct. Neither you nor OP knows when the camera is on or off. He may turn it off when he goes out and turn it on when he returns.

He could sit on the street and record without issue.

Yes he could, but probably wouldn't bother 24/7.