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Meaning in simple terms? Property-related with drawing

61 replies

GoodQueenBess · 01/06/2025 13:06

Could someone with legal nous make sense of this for me please?

"Together with full right and liberty for the Purchaser
successors in title his and their tenants and under-tenants and all of persons authorised by him or them (in common with all other persons having a like right) at all times hereafter on foot only to pass and repass along such part of the passageway coloured blue on the said plan as may be necessary for the purpose of obtaining access to the rear of the premises hereby conveyed the Purchaser and his successors in title paying a proportionate part of the expense of keeping such passageway in repair And Together with the right for the Purchaser and his successors in title (in common as aforesaid) to run water and soil in and through the sewer in the position shown by a blue line on the said plan for the purpose of the running of water and soil from the premsies hereby conveyed to the public sewer in and the like right to carry water supply under or through the adjoining properties known as Numbers aforesaid in the position shown by a red
line on the said plan the Purchaser and his successors in title bearing a proportionate cost of the expense of cleansing repairing and maintaining the said sever and drain Except and Reserving to the Vendors and their successors in title or other the owner or owners occupier or occupiers of the premises adjoining the p thereof known as Number [redacted] premises hereby conveyed on the South West aforesaid their tenants
under-tenants and servants and all other persons authorised by him or then at all times hereafter but on foot only to pass and repass along such part of the passageway coloured brown on the said plan as may be necessary for then to pass over for the purpose of obtaining access to
the rear of the said adjoining premises Number [redacted]
aforesaid
and the right for the Vendors and their successors in title or other the owner or owners occupier or occupiers of the said adjoining premises
known as Numbers [redacted]
aforesaid to use the said
drain shown coloured red on the said plan running in under or through the
premises hereby conveyed."

So as not to drip-feed, it's my property, I've lived here 20 yrs. NDN has not walked across my garden without my permission during that time. He now says he has access at all times.

Meaning in simple terms? Property-related with drawing
Meaning in simple terms? Property-related with drawing
OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
GoodQueenBess · 06/06/2025 12:47

Update of sorts. The damage to the plants has been reported to the police. I have sent an enquiry to the planning dept about the easement.

The fence appears to be in my garden not half-and-half.

Someone knocked on my door just before 9pm and I didn't answer. I don't know who it was. It might have been my neighbour or anyone.

I'm a nervous wreck.

OP posts:
zenae · 06/06/2025 12:52

First thing to do if you haven't already is to get security/ring cameras back and front. You could have seen who was at the door if you'd had one, and it will help you to know who is out there.

Do you think it was the neighbour trying to intimidate you or the police following it up? Maybe ring the local police station and ask if they had called out to you. Then if not, you can narrow it down and be prepared.

GoodQueenBess · 06/06/2025 14:24

I don't particularly want a ring doorbell for various reasons (cost etc).
My front door is on a fairly busy side street, and the only person I know who would knock that late is the neighbour on the other side, but sometimes there are random people knocking (wrong house, kids etc).

The police would have phoned.

NDN probably aren't intimidating me. I suspect NDN lacks common sense, his wife is rude, and their adult son sniffs a lot.

What they are trying to do IMO is to get the easement moved by stealth. They've not used it in the past 20 years.

If they are about to sell up, they are probably looking at having to declare a neighbours dispute, or possibly having their extension removed, which would leave them without a bathroom and they'd lose most of their kitchen.

OP posts:
GoodQueenBess · 19/06/2025 08:28

Some sort of an update.
Managed to get hold of Citizen's Advice but not had a reply and am not hopeful I will.
Contacted a couple of solicitors. Waiting for one to get back to me.
The other was £400 an hour, so I said no.
Here's my worry:
NDN gets to access a new route through my property,and they use it morning, noon and night (school age kids +parents+grandparents).
They build a 'shed' (office/garden room/dwelling) at the bottom of their garden, then the building gets used as an office or airbnb, with access through my property.
Graphic shows the back gardens. The easement on my deeds is in red. Doors between gardens in blue.(only relevant in that it those owners might have had their extensions approved.
Purple line is what NDN says he has access right to.
Planning dept . is lax here.
If anyone here is a property lawyer, please help.

My NDN is currently 'tarting up' their house. and there are 6 of them in a 2/3 bed house.

(Image is not to scale and I'm no artist)

Meaning in simple terms? Property-related with drawing
OP posts:
Tiredofwhataboutery · 19/06/2025 08:46

Property law is often sketchy. In theory you shouldn’t have to accept so much as a nail or a screw but reality is different because we have neighbours we have to live next to and litigation is expensive. If the fence is on your side, I’d send a letter requesting it to be moved. I’m really stubborn so I’d stick something large and immovable in front of it. Wood store, kitchen garden, shed.

They are difficult. I’d be difficult too. Send them a letter saying only allowed to use path designated as right of way. Block the access before if becomes established.

GoodQueenBess · 19/06/2025 11:55

@Tiredofwhataboutery , whether the fence is in my garden or directly on the boundary would be difficult and £££ to prove, so not worth pursuing.

The location of the easement and their access to it is defined on the deeds, but NDN is saying that 'someone at the council' said it was from the back of their house not from the back of their house as it appears in the deeds.

I'm pretty certain that NDN is a lying CF, and that they have blocked their own access.

I don't want to antagonise them, because if they are being CF, they still have right of way to the easement, but they can't go anywhere with it because their extension blocks it.

I'm not sure I could stop them if they decided to put a door in the wall of their extension.

OP posts:
Waspie · 19/06/2025 12:45

I'd suggest you post on the Garden Law forum @GoodQueenBess Rights of Way - Garden Law Discussion

They have a Rights of Way sub topic and the posters there are experts. They will want to see the plans and wording you posted initially.

My understanding is that a right of way like the one your neighbours have over your property is never extinguished by lack of use but you do not have to give access anywhere other than as marked on your deeds. If NDN has built over the easement then that's on them. You can agree to move the easement, to the end of your garden for example, but you are not under any obligation to do so and the NDN would need to foot all of the legal bills incurred in making the change.

Good luck.

Rights of Way - Garden Law Discussion

https://gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=8

Needtosoundoffandbreathe · 19/06/2025 13:06

Do you have legal cover on your home insurance?

GoodQueenBess · 19/06/2025 13:55

@Needtosoundoffandbreathe , I'm hoping it won't go that far.

@Waspie , thanks for the link.

OP posts:
Seeline · 19/06/2025 14:06

This has nothing to do with Planning.
Building Control might have been involved in building over the sewer, but usually the water company deals with it.

I can't see anyone at the Council giving advice on easements, rights of access etc, unless they are Council/ex Council properties. It has nothing to do with the Council unless they are the landowners.

GoodQueenBess · 19/06/2025 14:26

@Seeline , they're not landlords.
What NDN said was something like 'I spoke to someone at the Council, and they said the that we have access' while showing me their registry document. I photographed it.

The someone at the council could have been an accountant or a cleaner.

It is quite possible that they thought 'we'll tell her a few fibs and she's such a mug, she'll believe it'

OP posts:
BoredZelda · 19/06/2025 14:40

GoodQueenBess · 19/06/2025 11:55

@Tiredofwhataboutery , whether the fence is in my garden or directly on the boundary would be difficult and £££ to prove, so not worth pursuing.

The location of the easement and their access to it is defined on the deeds, but NDN is saying that 'someone at the council' said it was from the back of their house not from the back of their house as it appears in the deeds.

I'm pretty certain that NDN is a lying CF, and that they have blocked their own access.

I don't want to antagonise them, because if they are being CF, they still have right of way to the easement, but they can't go anywhere with it because their extension blocks it.

I'm not sure I could stop them if they decided to put a door in the wall of their extension.

This makes sense to me. What’s important is the spirit of the law, rather than a pen line on a drawing. Your property must allow them access to the rear of their premises. If it were down to strictly what was on the plan then no-one could do anything ever to their property. The line shows the position of the water/sewer services, rather than a fixed route of entry.

If “someone at the council” told them that, I’d assume it was the planning department. If this was a fixed route he couldn’t alter, planning wouldn’t have given him permission as it blocks it off for all the houses.

GoodQueenBess · 19/06/2025 14:58

@BoredZelda , the deeds say access at all times to the marked path.

NDN's extension blocks off NDN-1's access to the easement, and blocks the water company's access to the easement. Planning would not have been involved.

What you are saying is that it would make sense for NDN to have 24/7 access to a path of their choosing through my garden.

It is highly unlikely that the Planning dept would have advised about easements and right of access, as they just say they don't deal with it.

OP posts:
Another2Cats · 19/06/2025 15:11

BoredZelda · 19/06/2025 14:40

This makes sense to me. What’s important is the spirit of the law, rather than a pen line on a drawing. Your property must allow them access to the rear of their premises. If it were down to strictly what was on the plan then no-one could do anything ever to their property. The line shows the position of the water/sewer services, rather than a fixed route of entry.

If “someone at the council” told them that, I’d assume it was the planning department. If this was a fixed route he couldn’t alter, planning wouldn’t have given him permission as it blocks it off for all the houses.

"What’s important is the spirit of the law, rather than a pen line on a drawing. "

I'm sorry but you really are very much mistaken here. A pen line on a map is very important indeed and the words that accompany it are very important indeed.

"Your property must allow them access to the rear of their premises."

Only across the specified route - not by anywhere else. If this is a bit confusing, just think about public rights of way. Quite a few people have public rights of way that cross their land (especially farmers). This allows the public to cross their land using a specified route - it does not allow you to walk anywhere you want on the farmer's fields, but just along the designated route.

It's the same with this private right of way, the next door neighbour is allowed to use that specific route but not any other.

"If this was a fixed route he couldn’t alter, planning wouldn’t have given him permission as it blocks it off for all the houses."

The council planning department wouldn't be interested in that - in any event, if the NDN only has a single storey extension of no more than 3 metre then it wouldn't have needed planning permission anyway and would have been done under permitted development rights.

Viviennemary · 19/06/2025 15:14

Another2Cats · 01/06/2025 15:11

"It sounds like he has deprived himself and his other neighbours of being able to access the gated passageway. His fault. You did not have to agree to the changing of his access and have done nothing wrong. He’s shot himself in the foot."

I very much agree with this,

Your NDN has the right to pass along the route shown on the plan, but nowhere else.

If they have now built a brick wall where once they used to be able to access their back garden then that is their tough luck.

It is up to them to build a doorway in their wall that matches the location shown on the plan.

You are not required to permit them access across any other part of your property.

I agree with this. The access is only allowed as per the plan. If they put up walls/changed things hard luck.

GoodQueenBess · 19/06/2025 15:35

The structures marked as 'dwelling' in my pic are structures built without PP as garden sheds. The council doesn't care.

There have been 'beds in sheds', and that's a police matter not council.
Imagine a bog std metal shed with about 8 people sleeping in bunks in it, and overhearing the shed owner and accomplice saying 'speak in English so they don't understand'. (That wasn't my NDN )
The place got raided by the police.

OP posts:
mistlethrush · 19/06/2025 15:56

If they've not used it for a considerable length of time (years not months but I don't know how long this needs to be) you might be able to prove that they've lost their right to use it through lack of use - but you'd need proof and legal assistance. If they've had their extension built for a significant length of time and no gate in place for all of that time I would have thought that would help considerably. I don't believe that they can make up a route through your garden that doesn't follow the marked easement on the plan.

prh47bridge · 19/06/2025 16:21

As Collaborate (who is a lawyer) says up thread, they cannot block their access as defined on the deeds and insist you agree an alternative. If they've blocked their access through your garden, that's it. Neither they nor any of the neighbours can use that access. You can agree an alternative if you want, but you don't have to.

GoodQueenBess · 19/06/2025 21:05

OMG. NDN kid was up on the flat roof photographing my patio just now.

OP posts:
MinnieMountain · 20/06/2025 06:38

Unless it’s a public right of way (which it clearly isn’t), the council will have nothing to do with it.

They are very stupid for blocking their easement but that’s their problem not yours. The route can only be changed with your consent.

Tell them no. If they bother to get legal advice they will be told that you don’t have to do anything.

Tiredofwhataboutery · 20/06/2025 07:30

If they put a door in their extension I think you’d have to suck it up. That said I’d be making friends with neighbour -1 whose right of access had been blocked and once they get a door installed will need to nip through their kitchen to access the appropriate path.

RandomMess · 20/06/2025 10:21

I would put in writing to them the legal truth that they only have a legal right to the original easement and you will not consent to it be moved.

flowersandfoil · 20/06/2025 10:35

This may have already been asked, but do you have legal protection with your house insurance?

GoodQueenBess · 20/06/2025 11:01

I got up very early and dragged some large wooden items across what I could of my side of the gap where they plan to put the door. The rest of the gap is blocked by a plant.

I spent a bit of time tidying (it's very messy).

@flowersandfoil , yes.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 20/06/2025 11:41

I wonder if it’s worth you getting a solicitors letter - cease & desist type style and what will
happen if they attempt to buy an access way through your fence.

I would a formal letter through their door, with video evidence of delivery stating the legal position and that you will take legal action if they attempt to make an access point and they will be hearing from your Solicitor in due course.

Hopefully this will defer them from doing anything until they are forced to get legal advice.