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Original poster

Landlord wants to sell

112 replies

ShiningforLeeBertie · 15/05/2025 14:11

My landlord told me a couple of months ago he wants to sell and if I am interested in buying. I may have been at the start however he wants too much money and the house has several issues.

My partner and I found somewhere else and have an offer accepted so are just going through the mortgage application process now.

My LL has now been messaging to say he wants to market the house asap but needs vacant possession, and if we can agree a date to end the tenancy. He put the end of July. I have told him I cannot agree a date as I dont know how long the buying process will take, but of course will keep him updated.

I have been here since Sep 2009 so from research a notice to quit has to be a minimum of 12 weeks.

If he issues a S21, I believe it would fail as the house is not compliant. He had a elec safety check done in 2021 and the house failed, with some faults listed as "dangerous". He has not done the work needed to make it compliant. There are also other issues but none where he has failed to meet his legal obligations. I believe the GSC from 2024 has also expired and he has made no attempt to have that checked at all.

I don't want to be an arse about it, but I'm also not prepared to make myself homeless just so he can sell. He said he doesnt want to miss out on another property but tbh thats not my concern, he shouldnt have looked at others until he had vacant possession of this place.

There is no agent involved, no deposit as he didnt take one (hes my ex-wifes ex boss, she moved out in 2017 and I stayed here).

I have said I will give him dates as soon as I have them, I dont want to be here any longer than I have to be, but I can tell that he will keep trying to pressure me into leaving earlier than I need to.

I just want to know my rights as a tenant, and also him not fulfilling his legal obligations (which I have reminded him of constantly and have evidence of him saying he knows he needs to sort it etc). My tenancy is just something he downloaded from the internet and makes no mention of notice periods etc.

Thank you

OP posts:
PrincessofWells · 15/05/2025 21:41

DrPrunesqualer · 15/05/2025 21:17

An amendment is just that
An amendment to the existing tenancy ie adding your new partners name to the existing one, for example
It is Not a new Tenancy agreement

Show quote history

It is not possible to amend a tenancy agreement without the consent of all parties, that means the two tenants named on the original 2009 tenancy agreement and the landlord. Even then it's unlikely to be recognised by a court because its a grey area but without seeing the paperwork it's impossible to give a definitive answer.

If ALL the original parties to the tenancy were not in agreement to an amendment it will be invalid in any case, this means the original 2009 tenancy agreement probably remains valid.

There is no requirement for a valid gsc to exist in order to serve a s21 in pre 2015 tenancies.

Op would do well to bear this in mind when entering into any discussion with the landlord, because her position is not as strong as she has been told on here.

Indeed some of the advice on here is a good reason why law should be left to lawyers.

Original poster
ShiningforLeeBertie · 15/05/2025 22:10

DrPrunesqualer · 15/05/2025 21:19

In my experience of a tenancy starting 2009 those things were required when the s21 was issued.

In fact it was all brought up in court by the Judge

Show quote history

Do you have the case for that please?

OP posts:
PrincessofWells · 15/05/2025 22:11

ShiningforLeeBertie · 15/05/2025 22:10

Do you have the case for that please?

Show quote history

Rubbish.

Original poster
ShiningforLeeBertie · 15/05/2025 22:13

PrincessofWells · 15/05/2025 21:41

It is not possible to amend a tenancy agreement without the consent of all parties, that means the two tenants named on the original 2009 tenancy agreement and the landlord. Even then it's unlikely to be recognised by a court because its a grey area but without seeing the paperwork it's impossible to give a definitive answer.

If ALL the original parties to the tenancy were not in agreement to an amendment it will be invalid in any case, this means the original 2009 tenancy agreement probably remains valid.

There is no requirement for a valid gsc to exist in order to serve a s21 in pre 2015 tenancies.

Op would do well to bear this in mind when entering into any discussion with the landlord, because her position is not as strong as she has been told on here.

Indeed some of the advice on here is a good reason why law should be left to lawyers.

Show quote history

So in 2017 when my ex was agreed to be released from the 2009 tenancy, Im not sure whether that would create a new tenancy with just me, or if that would be classed as an amendment.

OP posts:
PrincessofWells · 15/05/2025 22:15

ShiningforLeeBertie · 15/05/2025 22:13

So in 2017 when my ex was agreed to be released from the 2009 tenancy, Im not sure whether that would create a new tenancy with just me, or if that would be classed as an amendment.

Show quote history

What happened? Did your ex give notice in 2017? What new paperwork was issued? What does it say?

Acc0untant · 15/05/2025 22:15

PrincessofWells · 15/05/2025 21:41

It is not possible to amend a tenancy agreement without the consent of all parties, that means the two tenants named on the original 2009 tenancy agreement and the landlord. Even then it's unlikely to be recognised by a court because its a grey area but without seeing the paperwork it's impossible to give a definitive answer.

If ALL the original parties to the tenancy were not in agreement to an amendment it will be invalid in any case, this means the original 2009 tenancy agreement probably remains valid.

There is no requirement for a valid gsc to exist in order to serve a s21 in pre 2015 tenancies.

Op would do well to bear this in mind when entering into any discussion with the landlord, because her position is not as strong as she has been told on here.

Indeed some of the advice on here is a good reason why law should be left to lawyers.

Show quote history

By this logic though would that mean the s21 would need to be sent to all parties (including the ex wife) if it's an amendment and not a new tenancy? And so if the landlord doesn't also send to the ex wife it would be an invalid s21?

Eg, it is either a new tenancy and the landlord does the need the certificate or it isn't a new tenancy and he needs to serve notice on the ex wife as well. And if not, invalid

Original poster
ShiningforLeeBertie · 15/05/2025 22:19

PrincessofWells · 15/05/2025 22:15

What happened? Did your ex give notice in 2017? What new paperwork was issued? What does it say?

Show quote history

Im pretty certain there was no new tenancy agreement drafted, that it was just a message saying XX can be released and he is happy for me to stay here and pay the same rent etc.

OP posts:
PrincessofWells · 15/05/2025 22:21

Nothing logical about it, but it's the current law. And yes if the original tenancy is the valid tenancy a s21 must be issued to all parties to the contract. However op has said "So in 2017 when my ex was agreed to be released from the 2009 tenancy" so that might mean another question mark over the status of the tenancy.

Original poster
ShiningforLeeBertie · 15/05/2025 22:22

PrincessofWells · 15/05/2025 22:21

Nothing logical about it, but it's the current law. And yes if the original tenancy is the valid tenancy a s21 must be issued to all parties to the contract. However op has said "So in 2017 when my ex was agreed to be released from the 2009 tenancy" so that might mean another question mark over the status of the tenancy.

In what way please?

OP posts:
PrincessofWells · 15/05/2025 22:22

ShiningforLeeBertie · 15/05/2025 22:19

Im pretty certain there was no new tenancy agreement drafted, that it was just a message saying XX can be released and he is happy for me to stay here and pay the same rent etc.

Show quote history

Was there communication between your ex and the landlord? What actually happened because it's crucial?

Original poster
ShiningforLeeBertie · 15/05/2025 22:25

Actually, thinking about it, my current partner was added to the tenancy in an amendment issued Mar 25, and looking at that my ex from 2009 was removed and my current partner added, so in 2017 it seems as that was just informal.

OP posts:
Acc0untant · 15/05/2025 22:25

PrincessofWells · 15/05/2025 22:21

Nothing logical about it, but it's the current law. And yes if the original tenancy is the valid tenancy a s21 must be issued to all parties to the contract. However op has said "So in 2017 when my ex was agreed to be released from the 2009 tenancy" so that might mean another question mark over the status of the tenancy.

Yes understood, wasn't questioning which tenancy would be correct but more noting that it's possible the landlord will issue an incorrect s21 regardless of which tenancy is the correct one either because he doesn't have a valid certificate (post 2015, tenancy) or hasn't issued notice to the ex wife as well (2009 tenancy).

Acc0untant · 15/05/2025 22:27

ShiningforLeeBertie · 15/05/2025 22:25

Actually, thinking about it, my current partner was added to the tenancy in an amendment issued Mar 25, and looking at that my ex from 2009 was removed and my current partner added, so in 2017 it seems as that was just informal.

So March 25 your ex wife wasn't consulted about the tenancy amendment (her name taken off, partners adding on), meaning not a new valid tenancy so the 2009 agreement stands? If I've understood PrincessOfWells posts? And unless s21 is also issued to ex wife then it is invalid?

Original poster
ShiningforLeeBertie · 15/05/2025 22:30

Im fairly certain that it was in 2017, my ex said to him (she used to work for him) "im moving out, is it ok for XX to stay there" which he agreed to. Nothing formal was signed or issued until this year with the amendment made.

OP posts:
DrPrunesqualer · 15/05/2025 22:33

ShiningforLeeBertie · 15/05/2025 22:10

Do you have the case for that please?

Show quote history

I’ll see if I can find a date via all the text messages.
She got procession in November after using bayliffs.
There were two cases, the first was thrown out as she put incorrect dates down trying to get by without a Solicitor. For the second one she used a solicitor and barrister. I’ll see if I can find a date

It was at Watford courts

DrPrunesqualer · 15/05/2025 22:38

PrincessofWells · 15/05/2025 21:41

It is not possible to amend a tenancy agreement without the consent of all parties, that means the two tenants named on the original 2009 tenancy agreement and the landlord. Even then it's unlikely to be recognised by a court because its a grey area but without seeing the paperwork it's impossible to give a definitive answer.

If ALL the original parties to the tenancy were not in agreement to an amendment it will be invalid in any case, this means the original 2009 tenancy agreement probably remains valid.

There is no requirement for a valid gsc to exist in order to serve a s21 in pre 2015 tenancies.

Op would do well to bear this in mind when entering into any discussion with the landlord, because her position is not as strong as she has been told on here.

Indeed some of the advice on here is a good reason why law should be left to lawyers.

Show quote history

From what your saying OP needs some legal advice maybe
Although
The LL seems to think he could use a s21, so it seems he may not understand what’s going on either.

NoNotTodayThanks · 15/05/2025 22:47

Have you spoken to Shelter? I found them really helpful when I was going through a similar situation a few years ago.

PrincessofWells · 15/05/2025 22:48

DrPrunesqualer · 15/05/2025 22:33

I’ll see if I can find a date via all the text messages.
She got procession in November after using bayliffs.
There were two cases, the first was thrown out as she put incorrect dates down trying to get by without a Solicitor. For the second one she used a solicitor and barrister. I’ll see if I can find a date

It was at Watford courts

Show quote history

County Court decisions carry no weight at all so this is a red herring.

Original poster
ShiningforLeeBertie · 15/05/2025 22:50

NoNotTodayThanks · 15/05/2025 22:47

Have you spoken to Shelter? I found them really helpful when I was going through a similar situation a few years ago.

Not yet, this all kicked off today so havent had a chance to yet

OP posts:
Spirallingdownwards · 15/05/2025 22:51

PomPomSugar · 15/05/2025 15:35

We are going through exactly the same and I have taken legal advise and happy to share -

  1. Never tell the other party their rights. They should take their own advice.
  2. A tenancy agreement can only be ended in three ways. a. Mutual agreement b. By eviction from the courts c. By YOU providing the notice as set out in your tenancy agreement.
  3. If they serve a section 21 notice this has to be on the prescribed form and has to be valid. Yours would be automatically be invalid because the deposit wasn’t protected as it wasn’t taken at all!
  4. In any event, the date on the section 21 notice isn’t the date you have to be out, it’s the earliest date they can aply to the courts to begin the eviction process

Not taking a deposit doesn't invalidate a s21 because if there isn't one it doesn't need to be protected

It can still be invalid due to incorrect certification and if he didn't serve the Right to Rent booklet.

Definitely don't let him know he isn't able to serve a valid s21 notice until he tries to serve one at which stage point out why you believe it is invalid and when you estimate you will be able to leave the property voluntarily (if you have an idea) but say you will be able to confirm the actual date you will be leaving in due course.

PrincessofWells · 15/05/2025 22:52

It's impossible to reach a definitive conclusion without seeing the paperwork. I'd wait and see if ll issues a s21 and see in whose name is on it then take it from there. Further advice at this stage is a waste of time because nothing has happened yet.

Original poster
ShiningforLeeBertie · 15/05/2025 22:55

Spirallingdownwards · 15/05/2025 22:51

Not taking a deposit doesn't invalidate a s21 because if there isn't one it doesn't need to be protected

It can still be invalid due to incorrect certification and if he didn't serve the Right to Rent booklet.

Definitely don't let him know he isn't able to serve a valid s21 notice until he tries to serve one at which stage point out why you believe it is invalid and when you estimate you will be able to leave the property voluntarily (if you have an idea) but say you will be able to confirm the actual date you will be leaving in due course.

Show quote history

No HTR booklet needed for my tenancy

OP posts:
Spirallingdownwards · 15/05/2025 22:57

As a LL he would be mad to try to start eviction procedure for someone already willing to leave voluntarily fairly soon anyway bearing in mind how big a back log the courts have.

Spirallingdownwards · 15/05/2025 22:58

ShiningforLeeBertie · 15/05/2025 22:55

No HTR booklet needed for my tenancy

Show quote history

Yes after replying to that poster I realised the thread had moved on a bit.

DrPrunesqualer · 15/05/2025 23:07

PrincessofWells · 15/05/2025 22:48

County Court decisions carry no weight at all so this is a red herring.

Show quote history

Wish I read this earlier
Ive been scrolling through text messages since I last posted !

Thanks @PrincessofWells

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