Mums Will, failed!

[1452kc]

Husband(H) and Wife(W) walk into a Solicitors(S) to make the W Will, both H and W are present in the same room at the Will writing. W has been unwell for a number of years and will, just a few weeks from now pass away. H and W have lived separate lives for many years, separate beds, separate rooms and if finances would have allowed, separate houses. They have no children, H has no children, W has adult children from a prior relationship. H and W bought a house together over a decade earlier, the house they live in, the bulk of the purchase was made with W money, which included inheritance from W parents and blood relatives. However they own the house 50/50. H is somewhat controlling and abusive.

W tells S she wants to leave her half share in the house to her children, S adds to the Will, i assume after informing W this is what would be needed, that 'there was to be no restriction on the sale of the property' and 'no life interest for the H'. The point of these statements was to ensure the children got the W share in the house upon her death, not decades(?) later when the H dies. The H has significant funds of his own after inheriting his own fathers house.

During this meeting about the Will, the S asks these laypeople(H and W) 'is the house held as JT or TIC', what layperson know the ramifications of that? Anyway, S states in his notes that the(who responded?) response was 'TIC'. As the house is held as TIC what W has put in her Will, ie leave her share in the house to her children, is valid. Anyone can check the Land registry for a few £'s to find out the answer to JT, TIC, why didn't the S or S secretary do so? Why even ask the question? S should confirm with the source(Land Registry). Lazy, negligent, stupid, in on it? The H and S were both male, same age, etc.

Around a week later H walks back into S office and asks 'what if the property is not held at TIC?', S states, ' you will need to discuss that with your W'. S does not contact W. H does not talk to W.

A few weeks later W passes.

Turns out property as documented at the Land Registry is held as JT. Therefore W share passes to H and Will is worthless.

There may be paper work at the property that severed the JT, but that cannot be accessed. H will not allow it.

So the issue is the TIC vs JT. Many argue a course of action can severe a JT without any formal paper work explicitly severing the JT. If you apply for divorce it's likely you don't want to leave your share to your soon to be ex partner. Equally if you make a Will in front of your partner that states you want to leave your share to your kids, not them, surely that severs the JT. It's just common sense. Another point is, both(we will never know) H and W stated the property is held as TIC during the Will writing, that's a mutual agreement right there, a bit like saying 'i do' in the church.

So why does H now own 100% of the house? What a bs legal system. Deliberately grey, it should be a flow chart.

So how do we go back and get JT changed to TIC, so the Will is effective and the children can get their inheritance.

Thanks

It transpires this was all over 15 years ago

Because the other party needs to know too.

So to be effective, to sever the tenancy unilaterally you have to serve notice on them. So they are aware of that when they write their own Will.

This is called the notice of unilateral severance and needs to be served by recorded delivery.

Did your mum do that?

OMG, no chance, its all history....

Wonder if the H had died first if OP would be happy with the W having to buy his share of the property or being forced to move out and live in a caravan?..

Not adding up

Appears it happened 15 years ago when the LeO opened - but a few pages back the OP was responding to my and other suggestions that a form SEV-1 might be in the works at the registry, which would indicate months, LR are slow, but not that slow....

All very odd...

With completely contradictory arguments.

Therefore writing a Will that leaves your share to someone other than the other share owner, will sever the Tenancy, ie flip it from JT to TIC.

That honestly isn’t the case @1452kc . DH and I both wanted to leave our shares to our kids not each other. We knew it was a JT. The solicitor told us we’d need to change to TIC to do that, and arranged that for us. I think it took a few weeks, might have been months, but we received a letter to say it was done, and IIRC a copy of the LR entry. We could then get our wills printed and witnessed.

You don't even need a solicitor when you want to make a Will.

It is clear nothing is going to change the OP's stance on this. Her/his inability to understand the law is because the law is stupid, the people who know the law are stupid, and the people who work in law are stupid and incompetent. Oh and electrical engineers should write Wills because STEM > law.

This thread has gone the way of all the similar type of threads complaining that people cohabiting should have all the rights of people who have the legal contract of marriage or civil partnership, but who should not have to actually enter into either type of legal contract, for example. They want the law to be changed to suit the people who don't like the law.
It just goes round and round.
Because your property is usually your most valuable asset, go and check your legal documents now. Make your will.
Remember that if you get married any will you made previously is immediately invalid unless you specifically made it in anticipation of marriage and that is written down.
Sort your legal stuff out while you are well and review it regularly.
Anybody can change their will at any time.

The splicitor made the position clear. I don't see how it's his responsibility to check how the house is owned. He's writing a will, not conveyancing. Obviously a decent man would abide by his dead wife's wishes but doesn't sound as though he is one. Sorry OP, but once married I wouldn't personally expect any inheritance to go anywhere other than to the surviving spouse.

OP, I feel for you.

Solicitors are a trade, and like any other trade you have to search around for a good one.

DH and I recently remade wills and, for complicated family reasons, changed our house from JT to TIC at 50% each, so we can each leave our 50% elsewhere. The form SEV was signed when we signed the wills. The solicitor said it could take up to two years for LR to register it but that didn’t matter because it was in the system and evidence of the severance which was now simply awaiting registration.

Finding a decent solicitor was not easy. We had been poorly advised previously and thus our previous wills would have been an expensive nightmare to enact. Another solicitor was pushing us towards trust management companies, each taking a slice of our modest estate with wills which would have tied down trusts for 125 years! Yet another suggested a trust which any court would regard as a sham!

In a separate but relevant matter, when my father died his will left me 50% of his estate and I was joint executor with my evil ex sister, or so I thought! In the weeks before his death from dementia, she and her partner (a dodgy solicitor himself), made Dad sign a new will leaving it all to her! I researched (heard some awful tales on MN) and took advice on launching a challenge, but even for such an obvious case of coercion and fraud the process could take years, costs thousands and have no guarantee of success. I looked at no win no fee solicitors, but that would leave me (and even my estate after my death) at their mercy and jumping through their hoops.

Anyway, back to the plot. Can you check if the LR have the form SEV in their system awaiting their attention? There may well be evidence of it at the house, but H will likely destroy that. Other than that OP may I gently suggest you move forward and leave this episode behind you. Don’t let it take over your life and destroy your peace of mind.

Truly evil people like H and my ex sister, just aren’t worth it.

@Losingouthurtsbutnotasmuchaslegalfees
The OP is a troll.
This all happened around 15 years ago.
He just likes having a go at lawyers.

Of course it’s the responsibility of the will writer. The solicitor knew the validity of the will rested on whether this particular piece of information was correct or not. It’s checkable. He should have checked.

And I was actually referring to making a complaint about the fact that OP has contacted her MP and not received any reply.

If this all happened approx 15 years ago, as suggested by pp, was the LR able to be checked in “2 minutes” online from anywhere?

Would it have been a bigger job back in the day?

I hardly think so. We moved house in 2004 - for the first time in 24 years. Everything was checkable on rightmove and Zoopla. Our conveyancing solicitor checked everything via LR website as property was split between myself, DH and my mum. When we moved again in 2015 the conveyancing solicitor was able to check the tenancy status from LR website again - notified us in writing.

But once married to a man you no longer trust because of his behaviour, surely you would want to make provision for your own children ? Of course it’s the solicitors’ responsibility to check - he knew the validity of the will depended on this detail being correct. If they had wanted a DIY will they would have done it. If you pay a solicitor you expect it to be watertight.

If you want it to be legally valid and watertight, yes you do.

Not strictly true, & HM wills can be "legally valid and watertight".
But the risks are not worth it.

When I had my will written I wasn’t asked how we owned our house. Id go so far as to say the person who wants the will should know how they own their own house!

Are you the OPs friend? The OP has battled for years to get this sorted and has been told by numerous legal people that the solicitor is not responsible for the deceased giving them accurate information. It’s irrelevant what you think should have happened. The law is the law.

That is not true. Good practice would require a check of the Land Registry when drafting a Will to make sure the document works. Any solicitor on this thread would agree. So I'm not sure what happened with the OPs case.

I suspect what happened is not what the OP has said happened.

The OP wasn't even there. This is all speculation and accusation to fit the narrative the OP wanted 15 years ago

It is true, as shown by the OPs inability to get the will overturned 😂

I'm impressed that you can be so confident in giving your legal judgement on the confusing information the OP has given us. Unusual.