Power of Attorney

[killedanotherhouseplant]

My parents have asked me into looking to complete POA forms for them. They are capable of doing it, but spooked by the online process. I consulted a legal friend and she said it's relatively simple to do yourself, so here we are.

I have a few questions, that I can't easily find the answer to:

• For everything but property sale, we want the POA to be "jointly and severally". My brother has some concerns about this as he wants everything to be "jointly" for transparency. However, he lives in Australia. Will everything (e.g. a payment to a carer, roof repair etc.) require a wet signature from him if we go down this route? Also, I'm assuming that the time difference could be an issue if we needed to make a payment and needed to wait for him to authorise it?
• Additionally my brother has no UK address, and the online form only allows you to put in a UK-based address (though he has bank accounts in the UK and the statements still come to my parents' house, so perhaps that's a solution)
• If the day comes when we need to enact the POA and make a payment from a parent's account - how does that work in practice? I'm sure elderly people are rightly not encouraged to share PINs / passwords, so how would I potentially authorise a payment?

Thoughts appreciated!

You need to register the PoA with parents' banks.

No way would it work 'jointly' with brother in Australia.

You should not be stating brothers address is in UK if it isn't - you could get in trouble!

What exactly does your brother mean by transparency? It sounds like the real issue is he doesn't trust you to use the POA appropriately.

He is one of life's collaborators and believes every decision should be made by committee. It's not a trust thing, per se but a bit of a control thing I think.

Jointly absolutely will not work with him in Australia. Everything will require his approval.

You should be able to put in his non-UK address, you just need to not use the postcode search feature.

You either get them to share their pins, or register with their bank and get cards etc., in your name as attorney.

You also apply to get access to online banking when you register the LPA, so that's sorted.

The person looking after parents day-to-day needs to be able to use the POA alone. The absent sibling needs to give the carer sibling their unconditional support and trust. If he won't do that, read him the riot act and suggest he comes home and looks after them.

With regard to how you make payments, in my experience you register the PoA with the bank and they can then provide you with both online access to the account and a debit card as representative.

you definitely need it as 'jointly and severally' if the other party isn't living in the country.

For payments, if your parents still have capacity they can authorise you to have third party access to their accounts which gives you a card, lets you act on their behalf etc.

If you are enacting the POA you register it with the bank and from then on you can do everything.

100% agree about it being unrealistic for your brother to take part in all decisions.

I’m Australian, living here with an English husband. No 1 son, as it happens. No, he does not have power of attorney for his parents. Only the family at home do.

Your brother made the decision to leave home and cannot behave as if he didn’t. Tell him to pull his head out of his arse.

Jointly wouldn’t work - you can set up the POAs and not use them yet. Payments can be set up with a card in your name for their accounts now and your brother wouldn’t be involved as your parents have capacity.

It would cause an absolute riot if I suggested to him that I could act for both of us on his behalf. It's not a trust thing so much as I think he misses home (he has a family in Aus, so he's not coming back) and misguidedly wants to be extra-involved in everything.

I could persuade him for "jointly and severally" on day-to-day stuff (paying a carer etc. I would hope) but understandably for property transactions etc. he'd want to be involved.

I did explain to him that if - for example, my Dad, my brother and I were all needed "jointly" to sign off on something for my Mum, it would mean we'd potentially need a wet signature from Australia in order for Dad to be able to get £20 in cash out of Mum's account to pay the window cleaner!

Your last paragraph is exactly spot on.

How does he think joint will work in the middle of the night when you need to make an emergency decision and he's asleep?

You need to press on him how important it is to get things sorted now. If your parents have joint accounts, as soon as one of them loses capacity the other loses access to their money. If they both lose capacity you'll need to apply to the court of protection for a deputyship order and that takes at least 12 months.

Surely the only thing that should be jointly is house sale! That's the biggy, the rest is miniscule.

Thanks all. It's slightly more complicated as my parents have (owned separately - they've always kept their finances separate) a couple of rental properties each. I think I might get a solicitor to draw up the POA - just so they can have the headache of explaining to my brother the practicalities!

We haven't yet got into a Healthcare POA, so this is solely for financial decisions - which are less of an emergency, normally, but still an arseache if you need to wait for someone in a different timezone to make a decision.

Recently I spoke to someone who is POA with another person for their partner. They only needed one POA to access the partners bank account to pay bills. He is now on the bank card as POA and this makes it much easier than having to get the other POA to agree every payment.

I would say jointly and severally and then put in the notes section that you would like them to make decisions over £2000 or whatever jointly. I don't think they have to be held by that but most decent institutions would.

Rental properties will complicate it in terms of him wanting to be joint but day to day it won't affect administration of their affairs - just make sure money is put aside for tax etc.

A solicitor can help, but it's really not a complex process and you need to tell your brother to grow up

I strongly suggest the healthcare one be one of you. In an emergancy you may need to act quickly

Yes that should be easy to stipulate

Nah we have this and I went down as the main and my brother if I 'failed/withdrew/died' - there is no way I could have navigated any of it having to check detail with another person. The POA was drawn up by a solicitor many years ago; then when the time came it was still a ballache that took weeks to sort with the bank. Every time I took documents in for them to copy I would be told it was fine then get a letter from the legal time 2 weeks later saying it wasn't. I had to get a solicitor to do me a separate copy just for the bank as the signed wording on each page wasn't identical to their requirements, even though it basically said the same thing. I can't imagine having to have someone else involved in signing things with me at each stage. It's not practical to have someone in another country as POA and if that offends him it's his issue. The priority is the person who the POA is for, they will need a present and active POA

Jointly simply won't work with him being so far away.
And anyway, it's up to your parents, not him.
Take them to a solicitor and let the solicitor explain it to them.

My sister was sole POA for our mother, apart from day to day spending, she discussed all larger decisions with me, so essentially, although she was the only one with power the decisions were joint.

Well, let the riot begin. He chose to move to the other side of the world. This is one of the repercussions.

Don’t take any shit from him.

You are the one who is going to end up responsible for everything @killedanotherhouseplant as you well know, so what happens is entirely up to you. If your parents and your brother want you to care for and act for them, then they need to accept that it is to be on your terms. Your brother actually has no say in this because he is not here.
Just tell him you are not prepared to act on that basis and stop bending over backwards to try and facilitate his controlling behaviour.
If he and they won't agree, then leave it entirely to your parents to deal with and tell them they will need to appoint a solicitor to act as POA with your brother and you are stepping down from all responsibilities.

The good news is that, in England and Wales at least, any new PoAs put in place have the option of the PoA being able to give access to institutions to view the PoA digitally - this meant that I didn't have to take the physical document to mums bank or the local authority (although her GP surgery and building society still wanted to see and copy the original paper document).

[ typing this highlights yet another reason why someone living abroad is not going to be able to act as PoA in any practical sense, as they won't have access to the original paper grant of PoA that should be held by the person to who the PoA pertains, ]