Neighbour fence problem

[Logic12]

I'm hoping for some advice and/or moral support with an issue with my neighbours.

Next door (terraced house) had a new front fence put in a few months ago. They didn't discuss it with me or check the position in advance, they just did it (background: they were new owners doing a full renovation, there was a previous fence which was falling over and they had removed a while before doing the new one). The position of the new fence is very clearly on my side of the boundary. I spoke to the neighbour within a few days (probably should have immediately but I'm nervous about confrontation!) and raised the issue. They acted in a very unpleasant way, but did agree to move the fence.

It's now several months later and they're finally saying they'll get a builder soon (I've reminded them a few times and been brushed off). The issue now is they're arguing about where it should move to. I think we should mark out the boundary and the fence needs to be fully on their side. Neighbour claims the fence should be centred on the boundary, so it's sticking into both our properties. The type of fence is wide (~20 cm) concrete posts with panels slotted between them, so he wants the posts to stick into my land about 10cm. He claims if it's further onto his land then the actual fence isn't on the boundary so he's losing land (said I can buy the sliver if I want that!).

So my question is, legally am I right that it should be fully on his land? And if so, has anyone got a good reference I can use and show him if he continues arguing about it?

I have found dealing with him very difficult, I feel he tries to manipulate and bully me into agreeing with him. Yesterday when we discussed he tried to claim the far post doesn't need moving as his dad oversaw it being put in and says it's in the same place as the previous fence. The far post is actually further onto my side than any as the last panel angles out into my side. When I pointed this out I got 'are you accusing my father of being a liar ' very aggressively. He did eventually agree it needs moving but I doubt he'll accept how much it should move by. For context, I'm a single mum and feel a bit vulnerable when I deal with him, I know for a fact he has been very careful about the position of his fence on the other side, but I think he sees a single woman as someone he can walk all over.

Sorry for such a long post, just trying to give the background! And have a rant really...

Did you check your title deeds? Usually the fence line has little arrows on the side of the owner who is responsible for the fence.

I'm not a lawyer but I understand that to mean that the other person has the good-looking side of the fence and if the posts are on one side rather than in the middle then it's on the side of the responsible person.

Concrete fence posts aren't usually 20cm thick, I would have thought around 10cm is the norm.

Thanks for responding. The deeds show that side as the neighbours responsibility. It's more the question of exactly where the fence should be that is the issue, ie can the posts be partly on my land?
20cm may be exaggerated, I haven't actually measured them, but they're definitely more than 10, maybe 15cm? To be honest it's become the principle of the matter now, I wouldn't have minded posts sticking onto my side a bit if they were nice about it and asked permission, but instead it's an insistence and acting like it's their right.

I think you are right that it should be on their side, also what inconsiderate people to do it without making sure it was in the right place.

The fence posts should be placed against the boundary. They are not shared and are his - on his land. His responsibility equals on his land. Keep working away at this. They aren’t in the right place. It’s not the fence that’s on the boundary and bigger fool him for choosing such ugly fencing and posts.

Thank you both ☺️. Having confirmation from others that it should all be on his land will make me more confident in standing my ground against him!

Based on the fence being his responsibility according to the deeds:

His fence needs to be on his land.

I’d argue that if he puts his fence on your side, you could charge him rent for that. But then I like a good argument. I’m not a lawyer, I am a stirrer, you probably shouldn’t go down that route without talking to someone who actually knows stuff.

Our neighbours put their new fence completely on their land, including the concrete posts, and gave themselves the "good" side.
This meant they effectively lost a few cm of land, basically half the width of the posts.

As the title deeds make it clear that he is the only one responsible for it then it needs to be on his side completely but the posts of the side can be right up against it. Just point out the title deeds.

By putting half on your side changes that to mean you are both responsible which does not accurately reflect what ur title deeds say

Check if you have legal cover on your house insurance. They may be able to give you some official legal advice

At this stage, I'd send one letter and say that if this issue is not sorted amicably within the next 7 days, you will be getting legal advice on the avenues open to you. If this is not sorted amicably in the next 7 days, you will be removing the fence that is encroaching on your property, returning the fence to them (leave it on their land) and they can sort out reinstating it on their property.

You were trying to get the issue resolved with out resorting to this kind of thing but if they are left unchecked, they could over time claim that however much of your garden is on their side of the fence is now their garden (that takes a long time to get established but perhaps they are looking for something like that to happen), or they're simply greedy land grabbers!

Thanks for the advice all! The home insurance legal cover is a great point, I thought that would just be for claims if it went further, but I've checked and there is a free legal helpline. I'll give it a try after work.
I don't think I'll send any formal letter yet - I have it in writing (text messages) that they accept it's currently in the wrong place and will move it, they've just started arguing about where it moves to now which is why I wanted to know legally if any part can be on my land. Then I'll feel confident arguing that point when it is being moved! But if they don't get on with moving it in the next couple of weeks I will consider written notice I'm removing it, or something along those lines.

Not a lawyer but I would expect that anything belonging to him (ie posts etc) should be on HIS land.

As others have said, the outer face of the posts should be against the boundary.

Next issue - how are you going to work out where the boundary is - unless it meets the corner of a fixed structure or is already marked, there probably aren't any plans that are accurate to within the 5cm being argued about.

The amicable way of dealing with this would be to get a surveyor to establish the boundary and both agree to go with their judgement. Lots of deeds (especially for older houses) aren’t explicit. Make sure you write letters or email so there is a paper trail. If you’re not great at writing these sorts of letters get advice from someone who is (even if it’s a one off consultation with a lawyer). This stuff can cost tens of thousands if it ends up being a legal battle but your neighbours must believe that you will use the law if you need to

Luckily the boundary is pretty clear. I have a carport with concrete floor on my side (which was built at the same time as the house) and the deeds show the boundary as going in a straight line down the side of the carport to the street. He wants to drill into my concrete floor to put posts slightly onto my side, which is the bit I won't agree to! I suspect the actual boundary may be a couple of centimetres off the carport, but I'm happy to use the edge of the carport as it's the not drilling into my concrete that I care about. He already drilled in once for the current incorrect position and I'm not accepting any more damage.

OP did you manage to contact your insurer to see if they can help?

Also worth posting your issue on the gardenlaw forum to see if you can get any more advice.

Your insurance will go down the route of classing it as trespass as I'm his fence or posts are.ttepassing on your land. I know because I have something similar to you and I called mine for advice and this is what they said.

I've just been on with my home insurance. They agreed his fence, including posts, should be fully on his side. As pp said, it is trespass to have them on my side without permission.

That's a relief, I feel a lot more confident dealing with him now! I'm hoping it won't come to legal action. He is an arsehole who is all niceness if I agree with him but turns nasty as soon as I disagree, however if I've stood my ground he has generally given in so hopefully he will on this. He may back down if I mention having had legal advice as well, he might see he can't bully me into agreeing what he wants.

It sounds as though they have put the fence over your boundary. If you can clearly evidence this then send them proof of this along with photos evidencing damage to your car port….

On (date), I came home to find (exactly what happened). By making alterations to my property without my knowledge or consent, you and your builders have committed a trespass.

I am now requiring you to reverse the alterations you have had made to my property and to make good any damage done. This work must be carried out within a reasonable agreed timeframe and to my satisfaction. (and to the satisfaction of your surveyor-if you can’t agree where the boundary is).

If your tradespeople did work that you did not instruct them to do, it is up to you to claim damages from them yourself. It is also your responsibility, not mine, to ensure that my property is restored as I will require.

Because you and the tradespeople you instructed have committed a trespass, I expect you to pay all costs involved in making good the alterations you have made to my property. If you are not willing to pay those costs, I will take action to recover them from you.

(find out who did the work for them and also send them a copy of the letter or email)

Trespass is not a criminal act in this case. You would need to sue for damages. This would cost far more than you would get in damages. Plus you would have to declare all of this if you sell. Financially it’s better to negotiate. The fence posts must be entirely on his land. So although your legal advice says trespass, how you deal with it will be expensive and your insurance won’t cover this. Just the advice they’ve given.

You’re right, but does it really matter? I’d always try and avoid confrontation with my neighbours, it’s just not worth causing bad feeling over this. And you have a lovely new fence to look out on!

OP, how have things worked out, did you go back to him?

Not really any update yet. I went back to him about when it's being moved (he does agree it needs moving, it's exactly where to that we disagree on), and as usual he was vague and said he's waiting for the builder to get back to him. I haven't brought up the position again, I plan to do that when the builder is here - I will be there when it's done, and I think it'll be easier to insist on it being on his side then.
If there's no progress for another week or two then I'll start hassling about when it's being done again.

I think the builder will never arrive, I think you need to get a spanner and unbolt them and leave them on his side. Then the ball is in his court