Can anyone tell me what to expect please?

[CutiePatooties]

I’ve never been to court before and I’m due to go on Monday.

We were issued with a section 21, as the LL wants to sell her property. We couldn’t find anything we could afford and no lettings agent would accept us as I work part time and we receive a UC top-up. My credit also isn’t too great.

We went to the council who advised us to stay past the eviction date if we didn’t secure alternative tenancy before the eviction date, otherwise we’d be deemed as ‘making ourselves homeless.’ It’s obviously gone past the eviction date now, but my husband’s friend has offered us his house to rent for 2 years, so we accepted that offer thinking we could avoid court etc.

This is not the case, and she is still looking for us to be evicted before our intended move date of the 7th October. She also intends on claiming our full deposit (presumably to pay off her court fees, as we’ve always paid rent in full, on time each month and have maintained the property well, with the lettings never informing us of any issues despite inspecting the home every 3 months for the past 3 years).

I don’t know what to expect and it’s causing me anxiety (I have diagnosed BPD, and I’ve been referred for an autism and ADHD assessment. I struggle day to day and receive PIP). I don’t know what to write in my defence box that they’ve sent (it doesn’t look like there’s much room to write anything). We haven’t got any legal advice as I can’t get through to any of the free advice lines on the phone and we don’t have money for a solicitor.

Not sure if I’ve made sense on here or even what I’m asking for really. My BPD gets worse when I’m under pressure so I’m really not coping right now. I also know I shouldn’t be upset with the LL, but can’t help it. I know she’s not at fault for us having to stay past the eviction date, but she originally told us verbally we could live here for 8 years, then her aunt died, she inherited £700,000 net, knows we’re on benefits with two small children and now wants to take our full deposit despite being very good tenants for 3 years and despite knowing we’ve been trying to find alternative accommodation and have now found somewhere and plan to leave 7th October 2024.

Feeling very low, stressed, can’t deal with not knowing what to expect. We’ve each been given separate fees of £460 each (both my husband and me) which we can’t afford. Then it’s goodbye to our deposit. The thought of having to go through this all again in two years is also difficult, but my housing officer wasn’t responsive until I told her I had found accommodation and now she’s become very helpful indeed.

Have you googled to see if there's a particular branch of Shelter in your area? I contacted ours and left a message, they were able to get back to me pretty quickly. I realise time is ticking on, but they might just be able to fit you in, fingers crossed.

I’ve got through to them on webchat and she told me everything I already knew. She gave me numbers for free legal aid etc who I’ve tried already and told me about the eviction process etc which I already knew from my housing officer.

Looks like she won’t have bailiff costs, as we’re moving before that point, but she will have legal costs that we’ll probably be ordered to pay by the court and who knows she could get our deposit as well, as I can’t get any legal advice about that. Then we’ve been sent two separate claims and fees, so we’ll have to pay that too.

We’ve also paid rent on time in full each month, so in reality she will have had to wait an extra few months to sell her property, whereas we will be down around three and a half grand (which we don’t have).

I’m kicking myself about not enquiring for free legal aid, ahead of today. I didn’t read the claim properly and assumed she was after the deposit to cover her legal fees, when she’s actually going after every last penny we have.

Dang. I'm sorry. Was worth a try, though. Your LL sounds pretty grabby despite you being a perfect tenant.

This Facebook group is helpful for tenants in your position OP - https://www.facebook.com/groups/tenancymatters/

Well, we were perfect until we stayed past the eviction date and while I can understand her not wanting to pay legal fees and expected she would try and recover those costs, I’m shocked that she’s after our full deposit as well. Just cannot believe it.

I've not got much sympathy for a lot of Landlords these days, considering how bloody awful the housing market is. They should be prepared for things like this. We've been going through the process for 2 and a half years and our Landlord has been nothing short of insulting, despite, like yourself, paying all rent on time, keeping the place in good order etc. Meh.

I hope your move is quick and painless. Try not to worry too much about the money right now.

Good luck 💐

Just to note that you aren't staying beyond an eviction date as only a tenant or a court can end a tenancy. S21 is a notice seeking possession (ie telling you if you don't move out then that proceedings will begin to evict you), it is not itself an eviction notice.

A judge would throw out solicitors costs regardless of what the contract says. Simple cases like this do not require expensive legal representation and judges don't allow abuse of the system like that so would deny any costs they deem unnecessary.

This! Also she can’t keep uiur deposit for anything other than damage to property - it can’t be used for unpaid rent or court costs or anything that isn’t damage. Dispute any claims with the relevant deposit service.

can I just get the timeline correct here?

what date did she issue the s21?
what was the “please leave by date” on the s21? (Can’t remember exact phrasing)?

i assume she’s applied to court for a posession order? When did you receive the letter from the court? You don’t actually have to go to court - you can just not put in a defence, they will issue possession order. Then you have 2 weeks to leave then she can go back to court to get the writ of possession that allows her to instruct a bailiff, once she gets that (which could be up to 3 months in some places) you get another 2 weeks before the bailiffs come in. Then she has to store your belongings if you don’t move them for another 2-4 weeks before she can remove them!

I can see why she wants to get the process started in case you don’t move on 7th but realistically the bailiffs won’t be in your door before that (unless she already has a possession order)

fwiw I had to evict a tenant last year - S21 issued 10/8 so expired 10/10 - I got the writ of possession (which gives 2 weeks to leave) mid December after going through court, she didn’t leave after 2 weeks so I then had to apply for writ of possession - bailiffs finally went in mid Feb.

also I have no idea what these costs are that she wants - it cost me £350? Court fees but i don’t think my ex tenant paid anything (she didn’t challenge it)…your LL definitely won’t get double costs from you - any costs order made by the court would be for her actual costs only.

@DorotheaDiamond S21 issued 1st May, with a leave by date of 1st July.

I sent in my defence paper (not sure I did it right, as I don’t have a scanner or pdf converter so I took photos of the sheets 😂) I didn’t realise we could decide to not attend court. I just assumed we’d have to go or else we’d be in trouble!

The tiny bit of legal advice I’ve got here and there, from shelter and when phoning for legal aid, suggests she is highly unlikely to get us out before the 7th October, so I’m feeling a bit better about that.

However, it’s the money (we don’t have!) being thrown into this. It’s really overwhelming me. If we were issued one claim pack thingy, with one set of court costs on it, I’d understand. If she was trying to get us to pay her legal fees, I’d understand. That would amount to roughly £1500 (guesstimate). Yet, she’s issued both of us separate claims and wants our full deposit so it goes from £1500, to £3500. We’ll be paying it off forever.

I just feel like staying at home and hiding in my bed tomorrow, but I have to go into work very stressed, which wouldn’t be as bad if I didn’t work in a school! No idea how I’m going to cope at work.

She can’t get the same costs from both of you - courts won’t allow that. And if the deposit is in a proper tenancy deposit she can’t touch it for anything other than damage to the property - she can’t use it for costs! If it’s not protected you can get 3 times the amount from her and the eviction would be invalid!

@DorotheaDiamond it is protected. Oh, that’s good to know, thank you so much. Hopefully I can settle myself before tomorrow.

It’s not that simple is it. No she can’t use it without court approval but if she’s awarded legal costs she can successful argue the money can be used ie give it take it back

the court won’t want the landlord to be out of pocket for the ops issues.

this isn’t the first thread I’ve seen on here with people giving bad advice, or skewed advice, and leading the op into a world of pain, then the posters just run to the next thread and fuck the next one over. Maybe good intentioned but if you don’t know, don’t post it.

I’m not trying to be difficult, just genuinely intrigued as I’m ignorant of the legalities involved with this, but as the council have told us an eviction date on a s21 isn’t the date we have to legally vacate the property and that she legally has to claim possession, then does it just come down to ‘op’s issues’ or are we just following a legal process that will include legal fees for both parties as a result of following said legal process?

You are following a legal process…this is just how it works.

@Wineandcupcakes ”No she can’t use it without court approval but if she’s awarded legal costs she can successful argue the money can be used ie give it take it back”

agreed but LL can’t take more than her actual costs - she can’t just say she wants it all. also not sure if LL can take from deposit or whether she’d have to do claim against OP for that amount.

Also court won’t be impressed at LL trying to get same costs twice…or running up unnecessary other costs.

If OP leaves before the possession order is granted then the only actual costs would be court fees for applying for possession order - it’s not something that needs extra lawyers costs so I don’t know if the court would agree to them being reasonable costs.

First of all, she's being deliberately aggressive in litigation in the hope that you'll just say 'ok ok I'll leave!' so don't worry too much about all the shit she's claiming for. No one ever knows how it's going to go on court day but IME judges are fair and read between the lines.

It seems to me that you've done everything right. You stayed because the council told you to. You found a place with a reasonable leaving date. The landlord is having a tantrum. I'd be reasonably confident that the judge will see it like this too, although of course don't get complacent.

Stick to the facts, don't draw emotion into it. Try and highlight that this problem and the actions taken after it were out of your control, and you did your best to minimise the impact on the landlord but your hands were tied, especially re the advice from the council. The judge will have seen a million cases like this and know the process. I know it's daunting but if you can stay calm and factual then it will make it far easier for the judge to see through her bullying bullshit.

Oh well, I thought this day couldn’t get any worse and now my husband’s come home saying his friend will not sign the PRS form that the council sent him, as he doesn’t want the council inspecting his property whenever they like. He said we can move in without a tenancy agreement and he won’t charge us a deposit if that’s the case.

what on Earth do I do now? Surely having no tenancy agreement means having no rights and I’m a bit worried as to why he wouldn’t want the council inspecting his property.

I’m kind of wondering how much sh** I can take right now!!!!

You don’t want to move there, you need to ler the council house you I’m afraid,

And yes no tenancy means no rights, you are effectively squatters.

Yeah that's dodgy as hell. He'd take your money but could effectively change the locks at any time and you'd be out on the street if you so much as left the toilet seat up. Don't move there.

@Wineandcupcakes @Sparklfairy thank you, that’s the way I see it. Husband is trying to make me go for it and saying I’ve now ‘messed his mate around’ by not moving into his house. Didn’t think of him being able to change the locks, but of course he could!

This makes all of this a million times worse. I felt awful before, when I thought we actually had a home to go to. Now we’ve got nothing.

He’s probably not declaring the rental income to HMRC so wants to keep it “under the radar”.

Can you go full time for as long as it takes you to secure a rental?

As a previous landlord - a relative’s property rented out to pay her care home fees (I had LPA, and was executor), when she passed away, we gave notice to the long standing tenants that the property had to be sold to meet the requirements of the will as there were several beneficiaries. They were aware of this from the very outset, and were there over 5 years.

They dug in and didn’t leave on s21date, as they stated that they’d get a council house if they stayed! They then contested the court eviction order which was granted and asked for the full 6 weeks rather than the 14 days granted. In court the judge sided with me when I pointed out that it would take at least 2-3 weeks to get a bailiff eviction date, taking us past the 6 weeks anyway at that point.

My point to OP is - even if the order is granted at court, it will take at least 2-3 weeks to get the bailiff appointment. And the order may give you up to 42 days, plus then with bailiff time, you could have another 8-10 weeks to find somewhere.

However I would NOT move to the friends property, as PP have said, that’s too much risk. Wait until eviction date, and then you can present to the council as homeless.

In terms of costs, she cannot claim court or bailiff costs. She can claim locksmith costs, and for any damage to the property, which will be verified (or not) by the managing agent. They will not release the deposit to her without producing a report, with images, which you can contest if there’s any issue. As it’s protected, this should help you.

My tenants didn’t get a penny back, as the house was in an absolute state when they vacated, and the cleaning costs, replacement item costs (broken fridge, cracked hob) and gardening costs (there was a lovely garden at one point, and it was stipulated in the agreement the garden needed to be maintained) plus locksmith charge exceeded the deposit. This was all verified through the deposit scheme.

I will never be a landlord again. It was the right thing to do to maximise income to contribute towards the high costs of the care home, but never again.

Don’t move in there, it has disaster written all over it.

this is 100% FALSE.

A verbal agreement is enough for a tenancy, especially when it "takes effect in possession" (which means you are given the keys and allowed to move in)

OP please try to get through to Shelter again. Some of the advice on this thread is so wrong and misleading.