copyright issue with TV show

[Stripeysuitcase]

Hi everyone,

I need help regarding a copyright issue and what rights I can insist on. I've changed a couple of points to try and avoid anything too identifying. Sorry it's a bit long but quite a bit of relevant information to include.

I created a sculpture as a self-employed artist for an organisation. I automatically hold the copyright as the creator (as I was not employed, it does not lie with the organisation). I don't have my contract anymore as it was 10 years ago, but I have seem my friend's who undertook the same role that year, which clearly states copyright lies with the artist and credit is needed for any publication of the work.

A well known TV programme contacted the organisation to restore (and in the process, recreate) my artwork for their show. Replicating the work in its entirety, with high accuracy, is their key concept. I was not involved in this process, misled by the organisation when I was asked for photos of me originally creating the sculpture, and deliberately excluded from this process, At the time I was being paid by the organisation to repair other sculptures. There is the arguement that I may have been paid to repair this so represents a financial loss. I have been told by the producers that they signed a contract with the organisation giving them the rights, but I expect this is invalid as they don't have those rights. Whilst I am annoyed at the organisation, they are volunteer run. Whilst they have been incompetent here and they have form for not crediting artists, I don't want to bring this up with them.

I found out about this at the public reveal of the sculpture. It was a complete surprise. I was present and it was also filmed for the show. Despite knowing I was there, I was not included. I believe the photos of me creating the piece were passed on to the producers in advance, and they were told at least a week before the reveal. I was told by the organisation that they were sworn to secrecy so couldn't tell me about it. On approaching the TV producers about credit they said they would tag me in social media after airing. I insisted on a quick interview. When I followed up they then tried to say that their legal team believed I didn't have copyright as I was employed (incorrect).

They have since told me that they are including 'a short piece attributing me as the creator' but can't guarantee what will be actually shown. We discussed a couple of options including the interview at the reveal but they were very rude to me when I expressed my discomfort at them stating that they couldn't guarantee anything would be included. As such I haven't seen what they have planned to include so can't agree to it. I feel pressurised to accept something I'm not happy with, and I am concerned that they will leave it out or make it unnoticable.

To defend this would cost me far more money than I have. I am concerned that they are going to do what they like and just say 'sue us'. Also, as it's artwork, not a product, the money I would have 'lost' from them infringing on my copyright wouldn't be worth pursuing legally (I would have been paid around £1000 to fix the piece myself, and I was originally commissioned around £2000). However, the show will commercially gain from my work at a much higher sum. In addition, this could gain me significant commercial interest and following through socials and for future commissions. I am aware of moral rights and that they could be worried about me going to the press with it.

I want the TV company to credit the work in a way that I agree with and I have told them they don't have my permission to use the work otherwise. They are still proceeding with filming and have told me that the edit is nearly finished. They are not forthcoming with communication and I feel incredibly dismissed and unfairly treated. Without this piece of work, and my permission to use it, they wouldn't have this section of their show. I expect they have invested a lot into getting to this point.

I want to know where I stand with insisting on having a say in how the credit is presented, being involved in this process, and also around royalties. What is the likelihood that they will just make the show anyway? Do I have to be happy with them just mentioning my name as I wouldn't have given permission for just that?

Thanks very much!

Also @StinkyWizzleteets and @TheBossOfMe I would bet a lot of money that the organisation signed the doc saying they had the rights simply because they were excited and didn't think about whether it was ok to do it not. They don't give a shit about the artists, they never give us credit and have always treated us unfairly, and we have sometimes worked on blind faith with no contracts.

I asked them a few months ago if they had a copy of my contract and they said they don't as it was pre-computer use for them. So I am pretty sure that this isn't because they've got something up their sleeve. They are volunteer run.

Sorry also @StinkyWizzleteets, the IP lawyer said it wasn't worth fighting for the financial loss as in I could only claim a small amount in relation to royalties or lost income Vs the cost of defending it against the equivalent of Walt Disney. He said it just comes down to who has the most money.

I'm sorry if I am not understanding or handling this correctly. Clearly and understandably I am hugely emotionally involved in this and extremely upset. I am only human so please understand that it's very difficult for me to just deal with this very factually and coldly.

I know you said you don’t want to really talk about re the social media side, but if it ends up not going the way you’re hoping for ie it’s just the old picture and your name, I’d really really recommend a blog post with the keywords in, people googling for that cool sculpture afterwards are going to put in original sculptor of X , make sure you come high up in that.
youd be surprised how often people find you, I work in motion graphics and I’ve had people find my portfolio sometimes years after the thing I did was launched, because they’ve searched motion graphics from X and my portfolio and blog breakdown of how I did it has come up

It’s fine to be emotional about it - it’s your work and is part of who you are.

Setting emotion aside though, let’s try and think this through logically.

The production company at one point offered a form of credit that you were ok with. So at some point they thought that you owned the copyright and they needed to accommodate your wishes.

They then declined to confirm this in writing, and then ghosted you? The lack of written confirmation may have just been a relatively junior production person not wanting to commit to anything in writing. The ghosting is maybe more telling?

I would bet money on them going back to the organisation that had your work and asking them who owned copyright. And I’d bet that the volunteer run organisation answered in writing that they do. Because they maybe don’t understand that they don’t. See all the answers on this thread that assume it’s your job to prove you own the copyright when it’s the other way round.

So I suspect the production company might be sitting there saying “well, if it turns out the organisation don’t own the copyright and we get sued or blamed, we’ll just throw that back and sue the organisation for misrepresenting the situation”. No skin off their nose.

So maybe I think the better route might be for you to communicate with the organisation and get them to inform Ricochet that you own copyright and not them. That would force the producers hand a bit. And I know you talk about them being a loved volunteer led organisation. But they are the people who have put you in this position. Not the production company.

If I were you, that’s the route I’d take for now.

And sorry if you think I’m being patronising. I’m really just trying to help - I spent many years in a creative industry so absolutely understand what you’re feeling and why this matters. Personally given the scale of the show I’d take just being credited and leverage my social feeds but appreciate that’s not your business model so a different approach might be needed. You’re the person who needs to decide that.

Either way, best of luck. I didn’t mean to be insulting earlier so apologies if it came across like that.

Can't we quantify a cost?

They paid you £1,000 or so to make this? So your loss is probably £1000 as you should have made the replacement.

They aren't making a ton of orofit from your specific item. The watching public don't care if it's your item being repaired or an old loved teddy.

Now if they start selling replicas that's another matter. But in any case you'd have to show some loss made.

@TheBossOfMe basically the producer offered several options, it was all great, they understood why it was important blah blah. Then in the same conversation, I asked for that in writing. And they said no, not possible, I can't guarantee anything at all. So basically, they could have my 'permission' to use it with the agreed credit, but actually do sweet FA and I would have basically agreed to that. When I said I wasn't happy with that, they got angry and rude and I had to end the call. I followed this up in writing with an understanding email and they went silent.

Maybe your take on this is what's happened and I agree that I have to put my big girl pants on and get in touch with the organisation. Actually, so what if they never commission me again - if I'm being honest it is never positive so maybe it's the clean break I need.

I think with threads like this it's really hard for either side not to take see criticism/argumentation/be frustrated with the other side's reply because it's so emotive on one have and so quite cold on the other. I really do appreciate your help and that of others. It's a crap situation and the lack of clarity and communication is very frustrating. Also the huge background around artist credit and the treatment I and others have had for years mean that it means a lot more than what it actually is if that makes sense.

Thanks again for taking the time to help even if some of it is hard to hear.

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It still seems uncertain you have a successful action in law against the production company. Expecting the offending artist will be protected by employment law is a reach. They may well have a contract but probably won't be an employee. Unless you've seen their contract/commission or had communications with them, why do you think they'd have an indemnity in a contract? Happy to be wrong if you 'would like to be in a strong position when I talk to the exec producer in two weeks' - One suggestion would be to focus on putting to the producer that 'this episode will focus on the unlawful reproduction of your original artwork which will be somewhat of a departure for a feelgood tv programme' then wait for them to offer something acceptable. Unless I've mis-interpreted something, I wouldn't over-sell your legal position against the TV company.

Good luck.

@burnoutbabe I would have quantified rebuilding the piece at £3000. Whether the organisation would have paid that or not is down to debate. I was paid about £2000 to restore other pieces of work in a more complete state at the same time, and did enquire about it but was told it wasn't being fixed. So I could argue that this is lost income to me.

I don't want this much, but I would like something. And I'm happy to discuss it; I haven't even had a response yet.

A major argument is that if I been given the opportunity to be involved at the beginning I would have been featured on the show (the producer recognised this) and would have been able to determine credit to my benefit. This is what I am very upset about.

Thanks @Zilla1

A major argument is that if I been given the opportunity to be involved at the beginning I would have been featured on the show (the producer recognised this) and would have been able to determine credit to my benefit. This is what I am very upset about.

But at the beginning, they didn't know about you so that comes back to the beef being with the organisation for mis-representation, rather than the show itself. And although I don't know the show, it doesn't sound like involving you from the off would fit the format, so if they'd known about you then, they might've picked a different item to feature elsewhere. I wouldn't upset yourself with such if onlys at this point, nor on the 10s or 100s of thousands of pounds they're (not) making at your expense as tv doesn't really work that way, so best to focus on any tangible losses and what is really viable now.

My friend works in clearances where they have to get every artwork in a film or tv show cleared for use and they're pretty in-depth getting people to sign things off. I'd have thought the tv co would use a similar system hence when the organisation signed it off, they were free to go ahead and use it. The sticking point comes when you popped up later pointing out it's yours. They'd then take legal advice about what to do and are presumably following it, even if it seems wrong-headed to you to not keep you in the loop. As a PP said, I suspect what you were initially told has been superceded, and perhaps that person had no authority to promise anything so I wouldn't set too much store by things being 'their' idea. Producers say things that fall away as soon as lawyers or business affairs hardasses get involved. This is why agents deal with those people directly instead of artists getting involved. It's an emotional matter to you and understandably, but that's not what the decisions are going to be based on.

I hope you do get some kind of credit that satisfies you, but would temper expectations and try not to see it as a big loss or getting hugely screwed over. Get what you can from it but no one is really making a big profit from your work here, and as you say you're in the realm of grants funded public commissions for relatively modest amounts, it's the principle rather than lost income on a scale that warrants legal action. A lawyer would cost you more than £3k if you pursued this far. You're more likely to be successful asking for £3k to go away.

Pay for a lawyer….dont rely on guesswork on message boards.

@Gall10 sadly I cannot afford one.

@pinkdelight I've answered some of your questions in previous points above but that's for answering. I think one of the issues is I don't know who knows or thinks what, and I seem to be expected to have a detailed knowledge of who decides what in TV. So we'll see what the exec has to say and I may contact the organisation in the meantime so that I can have a clearer picture.

Again this is about what is fair and reasonable for everyone but right now I don't feel that appropriate effort is being made on what's fair to me so I'm looking to even that up.