Probate, debts, eviction and no clue how to resolve it all.

[PropaneNightmares]

After a long stay in hospital, Susan has died. She had two adult children; Julian and Bethany. The estate is split 50/50 between the two, but Bethany is the only executor. She does not live locally as they moved away for her husband's job, but everyone involved is in England.
Julian was living with his mother in her bungalow. He was abusing her emotionally and financially. Social Services were aware and had deemed her at risk (safeguarding). Bethany did everything she could to help her mother, but Susan was scared of Julian and wouldn't tell him to leave.
The bungalow is worth about 200,000 but there is no cash.
There are no other assets.
There are significant debts in Susan's name, but the sale of the property will be sufficient to cover these and leave the siblings a small lump sum each.
However, Julian will not willingly vacate the property.
Bethany has no access to any information regarding utilities, bank accounts etcetera. It is all at the bungalow with Julian. She has no money to pay a solicitor. Her savings went on the (small) funeral, which Julian did not attend.
She has approached a solicitor who has sent her a probate form and asked for an upfront payment.
How does Bethany begin to sort this all out?

Does Susan have any idea who Mum banked with at all?

Yes, she used to get sent cheques for Christmas and birthdays. Although these stopped it's unlikely she would have changed banks.

In that case I'd suggest Susan go to the bank and provide the death certificate and ask for a list of direct debits and standing orders. That would be a good starting point.

As the executor to the Will Bethany has powers and duties which can easily be located by google. The Gazzette has an article describing what Bethany should do.

Sorry, mixed up names. Bethany to go to bank with Susan's death cert. Sorry.

"She has approached a solicitor who has sent her a probate form and asked for an upfront payment."

Probate is easy to do yourself in this situation, you do not need to pay a solicitor. There is however a fee payable to the government of £300.

If you read here on the gov.uk website it gives all the details of how you apply for probate yourself without a solicitor:-

https://www.gov.uk/applying-for-probate

With regard to bank accounts etc, there is a service available that will notify most of the major banks on your behalf (just in case she had a bank account you weren't aware of)

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2018/06/new-service-lets-you-tell-several-banks-about-a-death-with-one-form/

I remember there was a similar thread recently where one sibling refused to leave the home. The advise given was that, if the sibling refused to agree to sell the home then you would need to go to court to force them out.

ps "Her savings went on the (small) funeral..." I know it's not much but, as executor, you can reclaim from the estate anything you paid out for the funeral before any money is passed on to the beneficiaries.

eg if the total estate after any debts is worth £50,000 and you spent £5,000 of your own money on the funeral then you can reclaim that first and then only after having paid you back the remaining £45,000 is split between the beneficiaries.

Any legal costs incurred by the executor to obtain possession of the assets in order to fulfil their duties should also be payable from the estate so they would need to find a solicitor willing to be paid their costs on completion of probate.

Thank you. This is all very helpful.

I didn't even notice, so don't worry.

She needs to check land registry to see who owned the property. Who is paying the ullities on the bungalow? Was Julian paying rent check Susan’s bank account. Julian needs to accept the house needs to be sold to settle debts has he been asked to vacate the property?

How much is the small lump sum? And how much are the debts?

Because depending on the size, how much Bethany needs it, her own sanity, it may be easier to renounce her executorship and let the creditors deal with it.

Bethany can add the funeral cost as a debt I the estate and I believe it’s a priority debt so will be paid first. But if the lump sum is likely to be significantly eaten away by Julian being a d*ck about leaving the house, along with the sheer hassle, it might be easier letting someone else do it all.

I agree with @Another2Cats
Do the probate yourself, it's relatively easy for a small estate, I did it for my Dm's estate.
Get the original Will from the solicitor, don't accept a copy (ours had "Copy" stamped on it in red).
Banks etc wouldn't accept the copy and you'll need it to apply for probate.
Any money you've paid out, funeral, bills etc keep the receipts or emails from the utility companies then take the money back out of what's left out of the "pot"
Then you apply to court for an order to get your DB out of the property, as executor you are totally in charge and are responsible for carrying out the wishes of your DM.
Contact the bank that you think she used, take the Will and you'll be able to obtain the info on any direct debits DM was paying.
Once your DB is out of the house you'll be able to find letters or bills.
Also, as soon as he's out contact the council and they'll suspend the council tax, I think for 6 months, which will give you some leeway to get the house on the market.
Good luck, be strong

She needs to find out who has/had power of attorney.
No bank will give you details with a death certificate.
If someone was named as POA for health and finance then that person can get all the relevant information..
You can apply to the Office of the Public guardian for this information.
If Julian had POA and was abusing it then he is liable for prosecution.
The house cannot be sold without Julian’s permission.

Well, as sole executor, Nat West gave me complete access to my late mums finances, i needed certified copies of Will and death cert.

I could also access pensions and insurances too, its all part of estate administration.

How else is stuff sorted in the majority of cases where there is no POA ?

the law hasn't changed in the last few years on this.

POA ceases immediately upon death. It's irrelevant here, the executor is the one in charge.

Julian didn't have POA but did control the bank accounts, and had access to Susan's emails and mobile telephone etc as he set 'kindly' everything up for his mum.
Bethany has thought about leaving it to the creditors and those were her thoughts last night when we posted. She was in floods of tears not knowing how to cope. However this thread has already helped. We've made a list and we're going to start tackling everything together tomorrow afternoon.
I'm actually Bethany's SIL.
I knew Susan well as I still live locally.
Julian hates me.
The feeling is mutual.

I think Bethany's biggest worry is Julian being obstructive, or finding more debts, and then her being left with a loan or credit card bill for all the fees.
If he goes without a fuss they could walk away 10k each, maybe more.
Is there any way we could run a credit check? Would a solicitor be able to do this?

You are mistaken about a couple of things here.

"If someone was named as POA for health and finance then that person can get all the relevant information.."

A POA ends immediately on death. So having had a POA while the person was alive (incidentally, the OP says there wasn't one anyway) means nothing after the person has passed away.

"The house cannot be sold without Julian’s permission."

It most certainly can. Although, if Julian refuses to agree to sell the property then Bethany will need to get a court order, this will likely work out cheaper than leaving it up to the creditors to take Bethany to court, as the executor, to recover the debts.

In any event, in successful cases costs orders are made. This means that the losing side (which is likely to be Julian) has to pay the costs of the winning side (your mum's estate).

"...her being left with a loan or credit card bill for all the fees."

If there are more debts than assets then these debts are paid off in a set order.

From what you have said, it is very unlikely that Bethany will end up out of pocket.

If an estate is insolvent (ie more debts than assets) then the order that the debts must be paid off is as follows:

1. Secured loans. Eg a mortgage or other loan secured on the property. These get paid off first. As long as Bethany's mum wasn't in negative equity (ie her mortgage was more than the value of her home) then you move on the next category.

2. Reasonable funeral and administration expenses. This includes things like probate fees, court fees, solicitor fees etc.

3. Preferential debts. If Sarah employed somebody and owed them wages or owed tax to HMRC etc then that comes next.

4. The capital value of any unsecured loans.

5. Any interest due on unsecured loans.

6. Any informal loans, eg between family members.

So, as long as Sarah was not in negative equity, so any mortgage or secured loan was not greater than the value of the house then Bethany will be able to use the money to pay for the funeral and probate costs and court costs etc before giving a single penny to any unsecured creditor.

"... or finding more debts, ... Is there any way we could run a credit check?

If there is a real possibility of there being more debts that you don't know about then one thing that is often advised for executors to do is to place a Deceased Estate's Notice in the newspaper.

You have to place it in The Gazette (see link below) and also a newspaper local to where the property is.

It gives Sarah's name, address, date of birth, date of death and occupation if any. It also states that Bethany is the executor.

If you are in England or Wales then any creditors only have two months and one day to come forward and make a claim against the estate.

After that you don't have to worry about any unsecured creditors (eg credit cards etc).

Again, the cost of doing this comes out of the estate before any money is given to any unsecured creditors.

[EDIT]

Forgot to include the link!

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/all-notices/content/103403

"The house cannot be sold without Julian’s permission."

It most certainly can. Although, if Julian refuses to agree to sell the property then Bethany will need to get a court order, this will likely work out cheaper than leaving it up to the creditors to take Bethany to court, as the executor, to recover the debts.

Julian is neither owner or Executor, he is just a beneficiary and cannot overrule the Executor if she decides to sell, getting him out would be the main problem. If I was Susan I would go to the bank with the bill for the funeral ask them to pay it back to her, and then renounce Executorship - it sounds like it is going to be an absolute nightmare and there will be nothing left other than debts. Do not get involved with probate, creditors or anyhting else as she will be found to be intermeddling and will have to follow through the whole process.

There are some very knowledgable people on MSE forum who give advice on wills and probate - that would be worth a look.

First priority is to get the bank accounts frozen. If Julian has access to the accounts he may try to empty them (assuming he hasn't done so already).

I fo believe, it is illegal to stay in property after someone has passed, if in the will it states to be split. Lawyer up. Go to a good probate solicitor and don't take any emotional rubbish from abusive sibling. Its so Hard, even when siblings get on... so much tension. Wishing you the best of luck.

I know it's annoying and feels wrong but what about bribing Julian to leave. It might be cheaper and easier than going the legal route. Explain to him how much legal action will cost the estate and explain to him how much he will get if he leaves voluntarily - add extra if it's possible?

He sound awful but he will probably see it that he stayed home to look after his Mum and did all the caring and now deserves the house. He might be grieving and will be scared of suddenly being made homeless. I
KNOW he is a nasty man who exploited his mother but just highlighting how I imagine he will be seeing the situation.