Other joint tenant of rental property has died. What do I do?

[saraclara]

My mum had a rental property in both our names as joint tenants. A rental agent deals with it, and I've never had anything to do with it. The rental money all went to my mum's bank account and went directly to help pay her care fees.

She died this morning. I know that I have to fill in a form for the Land Registry and enclose a death certificate, and basically the house becomes mine.

But what happens to the rent? I've never had any dealings with the agent. Never signed anything. The contract with them was arranged and signed by my mum.

I don't know where to start. At this point I don't even know the name of the agent, though I will tomorrow. What do I say to them? What should I expect?

No@Babyroobs . My mum was very fit and healthy when she bought the house. She bought it to rent for a couple of years and then flip, as she'd done it once before and make a good profit. She wanted me to benefit with her on any profit this time round, rather than have to pay CGT like she had the time before.

But the market crashed, so she had to continue renting it out. Then she very suddenly became severely disabled and needed care. So here we are.

You poor thing . Take it step by step.
I assume there is a tenant?
Send an email to the agency so you have a record and confirm the death of the other owner (once you are certain it was joint tenants and not tenants in common). Confirm they deal with you and you have no relationship, professional or personal, with the FA.
Is there still a mortgage?

I'm back. And the executor has emailed to say that she's taken legal advice and the house IS part of her remit and she has the right to sell it! She has to be wrong surely?

Can anyone tell me how much it will cost to consult a property lawyer?

Check the land registry, screenshot the joint tenancy reply and tell her she's wrong and is not to act

https://www.familylaw.co.uk/newsandd_comment/how-does-a-jointly-held-property-pass-on-death

I would be going back to your solicitor now OP. I feel like the executor is being a bit shady here. Are they a relative?

www.phrsolicitors.co.uk/legal-services-for-individuals/wills-and-probate/resources/can-executor-will-sell-property-without-all-beneficiaries-approving

You can lodge a caveat to halt the process of Probate. Highly advised in your case I'd say. You can DIY it, or use a solicitor. It doesn't cost much.

As long as you are positive that the title to the property was/is joint TENANTS then it does not form part of the estate and the executor has no power over it.

https://www.gov.uk/stop-probate-application

All of the above, but you can also register a restriction on the property with the Land Registry to prevent a sale unless agreed by you.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/restriction-by-owner-not-living-at-property-request-registration-rq

She is definitely up to no good. Why on earth would she be so adversarial otherwise. It makes no sense, but I guarantee she intends to make money from this.

Thank you so much everyone. While you were posting I was recalling that most home insurance includes legal advice. I checked mine and it was a 24 hour service. I called them and a wonderful young women confirmed that I'm right and that the executor (who's not a relative, but a friend of my mum's) is absolutely wrong and has absolutely no power to do anything about the rental house. I can't tell you how relieved I was. I told her I wanted to hug her. I just needed to hear it from someone like that, even though I was 95% certain I was right.

I'll now look into the land registry links that have been provided. The lawyer reckoned that the registry wouldn't do anything if she contacted them before I'm able to send in the form and death certificate in a week's time. But if there's anything I can do to prevent her even trying, so much the better.

I wouldn't put it past her not to tell them that my mum has died, and to use her (elapsed) POA to try to alter the tenancy.
But if course if she does we can apply to have her removed by the courts.

@saraclara that’s great news, I’m so glad you remembered the legal help from your insurance. What a relief that must have been for you to get that confirmation.
Please keep us updated!

I feel like I can breathe again. I can't thank all of you enough for the help you've provided. After your confirmations yesterday I was quite confident, but this evening's email threw me into a panic again. That little bit of extra home insurance premium was SO worth it. I can phone these people as many times as I like, so as this isn't over yet, I can hopefully keep moving forward with confidence.

Tell her you have taken legal advice, she is wrong and as she was intending to act unlawfully you would like her to resign her position as executor. Advice on removing an executor here https://www.jmw.co.uk/blog/will-disputes/how-remove-executor-from-will

Once she realises there is no money and therefore no expenses for her shemay be glad to do so.

As you have now become a landlord you may need legal advice on issuing new documentation to your tenant, might depend on whether you were named on initial documents. Discuss with those legal advisers if you need one of these notices https://www.freehold-sale.co.uk/product/section-3-notice/#:~:text=Inform%20tenants%20that%20you're%20their%20new%20landlord,-Free%20Section%203&text=This%20is%20called%20a%20Section,the%20previous%20landlord%20notified%20tenants.

Thank you. Am I technically a new landlord, given that I've been part owner of the property throughout this person's tenancy?

If so, given that the letting agent is this woman's friend and has already been extremely abrupt and combative with me at the beginning of all this, when I contacted her to ask what I needed to do about taking over responsibility from my mum's friend (due to her POA lapsing), I can see doing this being extremely uncomfortable.

ETA sorry, I've just seen that I need to know if I was named on the documents. Finding out will be tricky for the same reason. Ugh. This is all grim.

The 'friend'/attorney sounds very dodgy, and I would be starting to wonder what else she might have been doing with the LPA documents - taking out loans secured on the property, for example, if she thought she would be able to sell the house after your mother's death. Have you checked with the land registry if there are any charges on the property? I would be asking for very thorough paperwork covering all the time she has been responsible for the house.

Or possibly she and the agent had plans to sell the house to someone they knew at below market price then share the profits on reselling.

Fortunately I've had my suspicions about this woman for a while. I know she resented me having part ownership of the house, and as she had POA I was often worried that she could do something behind my back. So I registered with the Land Registry's notification system. If there's any activity regarding the property they let you know. And only last week I got the six monthly confirmation that there had been none.

I've also checked the deeds in the last twelve months, and nothing was there.

Are you aware that you have to tell the Office of the Public Guardian when someone dies, if there are LPAs in place? It's NOT part of the Tell Us Once service, for some reason.

I dont know if you are technically a new landlord - therefore I'd suggest another phone call to the legal advice line or find a landlord's forum (maybe this one https://forums.landlordzone.co.uk/home ) and ask or at least ask in the legal forum here. But since it's a big fine if you get it wrong and they probably need to be told your mother is no longer involved it's possibly best to send a form anyway.

Being a landlord is not straightforward. I believe there are courses you can take if you plan to continue to rent the property. You'll need to find out how long an agreement the tenants have if you want them to leave because they have the right to continue their tenancy until the end of their contract and then you may need to evict them.

I'm sorry you have to deal with this while you are grieving but whether your name is on the documents or not may affect when you can stop using this letting agent.

Of gosh @anyolddinosaur . It's one complication after another.

Given the attitude of the agent and this woman, I'm dreading having any communication with them at this point. So I don't know when I'm be able to find out if my name was on the documents.
The agent is refusing to deal with me until she's taken legal advice, so I can't ask her. And I'm dreading asking such stuff of the friend/advisor. I suspect she'll not cooperate.
I'm feeling pretty broken with the grief and dealing with their behaviour. I just don't have the resilience for it right now. I've been starting on clearing her flat and talking to with the funeral director today. With five hours of driving involved. Just got back.

Tomorrow I'll have to pull my big girl pants on and decide how to move forward with this. Do you know how long a new landlord is given to register under these circumstances?

And thanks again..

Thank you for that. I will enclose a covering letter that gives that information.

I don't get the death certificate for another week, to be able to send the form to remove my mum from the deeds. Should I fill and email the form that ask for a restriction, to avoid her doing anything in the meantime? Or would she still be able to get through by using my mum's LPA as they don't know yet that she's died?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/restriction-by-owner-not-living-at-property-request-registration-rq

@saraclara I know this is just another stress to add to your growing list, but all letting agents have to belong to an ombudsman service. You could submit a complaint to the agent about the obstructive behaviour of the member of staff, once they have given you a decision on the complaint you can take this to the ombudsman that they are a member of.

i know his doesn’t solve your problem tight now, but it will give you some options in the future should you need it.

The other thing to check with your helpline solicitor is about contacting the tenants directly, and asking them to pay the rent direct to you, cutting out the agent. I used to be a housing advisor (for tenants not landlords though) and we often got tenants coming in because the LL had asked hem to pay rent direct. It’s your property so perfectly legal.

you could also put in a subject access request to the agent for anything mentioning your name , e.g. a tenancy agreement, or rental contract with the agency. (And if they say they hold nothing with your name they can’t later say you have a contract with them!!).

You've got so much on your plate, do you have anyone helping and supporting you through this?

Thank you @AllEars112232 . Sadly, although my adult children are emotional support, I don't have close friends I can lean on as, they to have a lot of stressful stuff going on in their lives, so I don't feel I should burden then with mine. I'm widowed and living alone.
People are being very kind about the bereavement, but this issue is more complex and hard to explain to others without risking boring them to death!

To be honest I really don't want to be a landlord. I'd far rather sell the house, and (if the council doesn't come after it for mums care debt) be able to use the proceeds to help my daughters with their own housing issues. But I imagine that will be a long haul too.

Sorry I missed this was the legal topic. A new landlord has 2 months to send the letter so you can take a little time but maybe ask on that landlord forum. Also the subject information request to the agent can be in writing so you dont need to speak to them. It is better if it is in writing. They have a month to reply so send that letter as soon as you can and by a method that records delivery.

So sorry about your Mum .

OP, for complete peace of mind I would go back to the solicitor you first spoke to and get them to write to this Executor woman setting out the position and reminding her that POA has ceased and she is legally bound to adhere to the Will.

One solicitors letter will be well worth it, IMO.

Just wanted to say that while my situation was much less complicated I feel your pain with the weight of dealing with things after the death of a parent @saraclara

Even with most things being pretty straightforward it got to a point I was putting things off as I didn't feel I had the energy to deal with them. It is like a weight that becomes more difficult to carry. I can only imagine how much extra difficulty is added by the actions of these people. The only advice I can give is to keep going with it, you'll get there.