Page 3 | Should we have notified the land registry department of my dad's death (6 years ago !)

bizzey · 2023-08-13T22:58:23+00:00

My mum is panicking about not having told the land registry department/office of my dad's death 6 years go. They did not have mirror wills I think is the name . Dad's half of the house "came " to us (children) as opposed to going to mum . Will was made official by the bank. As in we/they didn't do a DIY sort of Will them selves . Apparently dad's name should have been taken off the land registry? I thought it automatically did when he died ? Mum is getting all her information from friends of friends by the way Should I do anything? Sorry for confusion in post .... Thank you.

LandRegRep1862 · 15/08/2023 22:18

SlicedPickles · 15/08/2023 11:13

If they were joint owners a will writer should never have left a share of the property via their will.

The OP hasn’t properly administered the estate and has a legal duty to do so - the beneficiaries could take action against her and she could be liable for any failings.

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But the property doesn’t form part of Dad’s estate as the legal ownership passed to Mum. So doing nothing re the property such as updating the register re the death isn’t a legal duty and no action woukd be taken.
As for the beneficiaries their interest exists/remains but it’s really up to Mum and them to consider options and decide what to do. One of those options is to do nothing. A second is to simply update the register re the death. But they, and more, are simply options and not legal duties.
The difference between the legal ownership (always dealt with as a whole) and the beneficial ownerships (can be split) is crucial and not always understood

GrannyAchingsShepherdsHut · 16/08/2023 07:19

LandRegRep1862 · 15/08/2023 22:18

But the property doesn’t form part of Dad’s estate as the legal ownership passed to Mum. So doing nothing re the property such as updating the register re the death isn’t a legal duty and no action woukd be taken.
As for the beneficiaries their interest exists/remains but it’s really up to Mum and them to consider options and decide what to do. One of those options is to do nothing. A second is to simply update the register re the death. But they, and more, are simply options and not legal duties.
The difference between the legal ownership (always dealt with as a whole) and the beneficial ownerships (can be split) is crucial and not always understood

Show quote history

Surely it does form part of his estate because he left it to his children? OP hasn't said her parents were joint tenants, or indeed tenants in common, just that he left his half to his children but OP hasn't actually distributed it as executor and hasn't done probate.

Runningover · 16/08/2023 07:26

DanceWithTheBigBoysAgain · 14/08/2023 09:04

One problem that you've ended up with is that your half of the house will attract Capital Gains Tax when you sell it, since you're not living in it. If you were within two years of your dad's death and depending on how likely you thought your DM was to end up in a nursing home I'd suggest a Deed of Variation to pass it back to your DM but it's too late for that now.

You'll need to get a valuation of the house at the time of your dad's death (tricky I know but not impossible using records of sales of nearby properties at the time) and hold it on file for future reference. If you spend any money helping your DM with the upkeep then keep the records.

Is this true ? I thought CGT applied if someone gifted part of the property but they were still alive ?

AnSolas · 16/08/2023 07:33

LandRegRep1862 · 15/08/2023 22:18

But the property doesn’t form part of Dad’s estate as the legal ownership passed to Mum. So doing nothing re the property such as updating the register re the death isn’t a legal duty and no action woukd be taken.
As for the beneficiaries their interest exists/remains but it’s really up to Mum and them to consider options and decide what to do. One of those options is to do nothing. A second is to simply update the register re the death. But they, and more, are simply options and not legal duties.
The difference between the legal ownership (always dealt with as a whole) and the beneficial ownerships (can be split) is crucial and not always understood

Show quote history

You have not seen the will or know ownership of the home so you cannot be sure that the mother now owns the home.

The legal work for the will was done by the bank which held a legal interest in the home during the term of the loan. It is unlikely that the bank allowed such a basic error as to how the house was owned be added into the will
The OP belives she owns a share so she needs to check the documnets to be sure

clarrylove · 16/08/2023 07:43

I might be wrong here, but shouldn't you have also been charging your mum market rent for the half of the house that you now own? I thought you had to do that and declare the income to HMRC as a second home owner. I might be wrong though.

DanceWithTheBigBoysAgain · 16/08/2023 07:45

Runningover · 16/08/2023 07:26

Is this true ? I thought CGT applied if someone gifted part of the property but they were still alive ?

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If you receive a share of a house in someone's will and almost immediately sell it then no CGT is payable. All the growth in value in the deceased life time becomes tax free. Ditto if you move in to live in it yourself and then later sell it.

The OP however will be liable to pay CGT for any increase in value in her share of the house between her DF's death and when she eventually sells it. Because it's only a share, and she'll have tax free allowances it won't necessarily be a big bill but she needs to bear it in mind, and keep a record of how much it was worth at the time of her DF's death.

AnSolas · 16/08/2023 08:07

clarrylove · 16/08/2023 07:43

I might be wrong here, but shouldn't you have also been charging your mum market rent for the half of the house that you now own? I thought you had to do that and declare the income to HMRC as a second home owner. I might be wrong though.

I beleive that is needed if the OP's DM gifted her share of the home and still lived there as it is seen as a tax evasion scheme.
In the OPs case she cant charge DM to live in DM's half but the market value to live in " DF's share " could be seen as OP gifting DM

clarrylove · 16/08/2023 08:09

Ah I see! It's all so complicated I think you really need professional advice OP. I'm sorry you are having to deal with this.

SueVineer · 16/08/2023 08:12

bizzey · 14/08/2023 01:34

Didn't do probate I don't think .
There were no assets ...
Just swopped his joint account with mum to mum only name .

He had some insurance that got paid directly to funeral people.Mum cashed in his little life insurance which paid for the funeral.

i doubt it 6k would come under probate region !

The share of the house is why you needed to do probate. Maybe best to ask a solicitor to sort it

SueVineer · 16/08/2023 08:19

LandRegRep1862 · 15/08/2023 22:18

But the property doesn’t form part of Dad’s estate as the legal ownership passed to Mum. So doing nothing re the property such as updating the register re the death isn’t a legal duty and no action woukd be taken.
As for the beneficiaries their interest exists/remains but it’s really up to Mum and them to consider options and decide what to do. One of those options is to do nothing. A second is to simply update the register re the death. But they, and more, are simply options and not legal duties.
The difference between the legal ownership (always dealt with as a whole) and the beneficial ownerships (can be split) is crucial and not always understood

Show quote history

The legal and beneficial ownership of a portion of the house passed to op and her siblings due to the will of what she says is accurate. She needs to do probate and update the title as she is executor.

LandRegRep1862 · 16/08/2023 08:20

We register the legal ownership. That’s in basic terms the land plus the bricks & mortar. It can’t be split as you can’t have half a kitchen, one and a half bedrooms and half the bricks & mortar. As a result it’s always dealt with as a whole in registration terms
So when you have joint registered owners, and one dies, the whole legal ownership passes to the surviving owner. Irrespective of whether they are TIC or not
And as stated the legal ownership of the property in this case is not part of the deceased’s estate so probate is not required. It maybe required for other things but not the property so OP hasn’t erred re the property question
We don’t deal with the wills and wishes as they relate to the beneficial ownership. In the same basic terms that’s the value of the land plus bricks & mortar - the £s and pence. That can be split in a myriad of ways and should form part of any future discussions or dealings with the property
However it seems the OP and Mum plus beneficiaries have done that hence 6 years on.
It’s always best to consider what happens next re both property and Mum and beneficiaries. There’s often a lot to understand and consider inc CGT now and in future. BUT they aren’t registration matters so we deal with any outcomes of such deliberations but only if they mean the register needs updating.
And if the only update is re the death, as OP stated, then there’s no urgency or risk to do so and it can be done as and when other things change re the ownership.
Hope that helps in the most basic of ways. The complexities tend to arise re wills, wishes, care, taxes and more but the actual property is often the easy part

burnoutbabe · 16/08/2023 08:45

That is incorrect.
You can have 2 legal owners and both own a discrete share. (Tenants in common)
Which can be left to another person in a will.
Probate was probably needed as the value of the estate included dads half share.

So needs resolving asap.

But first get the property deeds and check if they were joint tenants or tenants in common. If joint tenants, he couldn't leave you any share, so the gift failed but legally it's simpler and no potential benefit fraud issues. Then it's just a case of mum being included as sole owner.

ConcernedCatmother · 16/08/2023 08:49

I wouldn’t worry about it, my late mums house was still in her mums name even though she had died 20 year’s previous. We just updated it normally via solicitor all fine :)

aslong as you’ve paid necessary taxes, nobody gives a hoot

AnSolas · 16/08/2023 08:55

LandRegRep1862 · 16/08/2023 08:20

We register the legal ownership. That’s in basic terms the land plus the bricks & mortar. It can’t be split as you can’t have half a kitchen, one and a half bedrooms and half the bricks & mortar. As a result it’s always dealt with as a whole in registration terms
So when you have joint registered owners, and one dies, the whole legal ownership passes to the surviving owner. Irrespective of whether they are TIC or not
And as stated the legal ownership of the property in this case is not part of the deceased’s estate so probate is not required. It maybe required for other things but not the property so OP hasn’t erred re the property question
We don’t deal with the wills and wishes as they relate to the beneficial ownership. In the same basic terms that’s the value of the land plus bricks & mortar - the £s and pence. That can be split in a myriad of ways and should form part of any future discussions or dealings with the property
However it seems the OP and Mum plus beneficiaries have done that hence 6 years on.
It’s always best to consider what happens next re both property and Mum and beneficiaries. There’s often a lot to understand and consider inc CGT now and in future. BUT they aren’t registration matters so we deal with any outcomes of such deliberations but only if they mean the register needs updating.
And if the only update is re the death, as OP stated, then there’s no urgency or risk to do so and it can be done as and when other things change re the ownership.
Hope that helps in the most basic of ways. The complexities tend to arise re wills, wishes, care, taxes and more but the actual property is often the easy part

Dont give legal advice on stuff you dont deal with

The land registey is a snapshot in time
It only registers legal ownership at a fixed date in time and at the moment DM and DF were listed
This is no longer correct as DF had passed.

Once the "complexities" re the will has been resolved the OP will provide updated information as to the legal ownership.

SlicedPickles · 16/08/2023 09:12

LandRegRep1862 · 15/08/2023 22:18

But the property doesn’t form part of Dad’s estate as the legal ownership passed to Mum. So doing nothing re the property such as updating the register re the death isn’t a legal duty and no action woukd be taken.
As for the beneficiaries their interest exists/remains but it’s really up to Mum and them to consider options and decide what to do. One of those options is to do nothing. A second is to simply update the register re the death. But they, and more, are simply options and not legal duties.
The difference between the legal ownership (always dealt with as a whole) and the beneficial ownerships (can be split) is crucial and not always understood

Show quote history

That all depends on how they held the property.

Joint tenants yes.

tenants in common his share passes under his will.

when you’re doing a will the will writer should check. The fact he’s left his share in the will suggests they held as TIC.

SlicedPickles · 16/08/2023 09:14

LandRegRep1862 · 16/08/2023 08:20

We register the legal ownership. That’s in basic terms the land plus the bricks & mortar. It can’t be split as you can’t have half a kitchen, one and a half bedrooms and half the bricks & mortar. As a result it’s always dealt with as a whole in registration terms
So when you have joint registered owners, and one dies, the whole legal ownership passes to the surviving owner. Irrespective of whether they are TIC or not
And as stated the legal ownership of the property in this case is not part of the deceased’s estate so probate is not required. It maybe required for other things but not the property so OP hasn’t erred re the property question
We don’t deal with the wills and wishes as they relate to the beneficial ownership. In the same basic terms that’s the value of the land plus bricks & mortar - the £s and pence. That can be split in a myriad of ways and should form part of any future discussions or dealings with the property
However it seems the OP and Mum plus beneficiaries have done that hence 6 years on.
It’s always best to consider what happens next re both property and Mum and beneficiaries. There’s often a lot to understand and consider inc CGT now and in future. BUT they aren’t registration matters so we deal with any outcomes of such deliberations but only if they mean the register needs updating.
And if the only update is re the death, as OP stated, then there’s no urgency or risk to do so and it can be done as and when other things change re the ownership.
Hope that helps in the most basic of ways. The complexities tend to arise re wills, wishes, care, taxes and more but the actual property is often the easy part

There’s the legal interests - ie whose name is on the title and beneficial interests. When you hold the property as TIC the legal title is the two of you and the “halves” are held on trust for one another.

SlicedPickles · 16/08/2023 09:16

burnoutbabe · 16/08/2023 08:45

That is incorrect.
You can have 2 legal owners and both own a discrete share. (Tenants in common)
Which can be left to another person in a will.
Probate was probably needed as the value of the estate included dads half share.

So needs resolving asap.

But first get the property deeds and check if they were joint tenants or tenants in common. If joint tenants, he couldn't leave you any share, so the gift failed but legally it's simpler and no potential benefit fraud issues. Then it's just a case of mum being included as sole owner.

Yes. Just check the title. If there’s a form B restriction re one registered proprietor not being able to receive capital money it’s TIC.

Original poster

bizzey · 16/08/2023 10:10

Wow ...thank you all for your time !

I am checking the will and deeds tomorrow .

I always thought that they were joint Tennant's

Would that be on the deeds ?

OP posts:

LandRegRep1862 · 16/08/2023 10:19

It’s a forum so everyone is entitled to a view and can share it. All I would add is that I’ve been with HMLR for 40 years and in every one of those years someone has asked the same Qs re joint ownership and more.
To clarify further the land register does not define how you hold a property be that as TIC or not.
You can apply for a form A (joint proprietorship restriction) at any time and many see that as confirming TIC for example. It doesn’t define you as TIC as it can be added by default, added through bankruptcy, added on application. But you can also be TIC with no form A restriction as there’s no obligation to apply for one when you split your beneficial share, write your wills etc
A form B is another restriction that can be applied for but not here it seems
My post was to assist the OP re her concerns at not having notified us and updated the register re the death - I sense that’s been covered now

LandRegRep1862 · 16/08/2023 10:24

bizzey · 16/08/2023 10:10

Wow ...thank you all for your time !

I am checking the will and deeds tomorrow .

I always thought that they were joint Tennant's

Would that be on the deeds ?

Good idea - as there’s a legal and beneficial ownership to consider the more information you gather the better your understanding.
The register will confirm the legal ownership for you. And everything else helps re the beneficial ownership
And just for emphasis re the property if it was in their joint names then probate was not needed to deal with the property.
Dad’s will/wishes still matter but as far as actually dealing with the property is concerned, and nothing seems to be happening soon, that’s for the future.

SlicedPickles · 16/08/2023 12:44

@LandRegRep1862 I suggest you read your own guidance.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/private-trusts-of-land/practice-guide-24-private-trusts-of-land#the-standard-form-restrictions

A joint tenancy can be severed at any time by serving notice. Yes and the register won’t necessarily reflect that - an application shills be made to update the register.

A trust deed outlining shares that aren’t even can’t sit behind the register.

OP should have dealt with the property as part of the probate - that’s her duty as an executor. She doesn’t even know if she was supposed to do anything. Clearly that’s a starting point.

Practice guide 24: private trusts of land

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/private-trusts-of-land/practice-guide-24-private-trusts-of-land#the-standard-form-restrictions

LandRegRep1862 · 16/08/2023 14:27

SlicedPickles · 16/08/2023 12:44

@LandRegRep1862 I suggest you read your own guidance.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/private-trusts-of-land/practice-guide-24-private-trusts-of-land#the-standard-form-restrictions

A joint tenancy can be severed at any time by serving notice. Yes and the register won’t necessarily reflect that - an application shills be made to update the register.

A trust deed outlining shares that aren’t even can’t sit behind the register.

OP should have dealt with the property as part of the probate - that’s her duty as an executor. She doesn’t even know if she was supposed to do anything. Clearly that’s a starting point.

Many thanks but all I can do is repeat that there was no probate required for Dad’s beneficial share of the property.
The legal ownership did not form part of his estate so no probate and no failure on OP’s part.
PG 24 deals with private trusts but I’m unclear as to the point(s) you are making.
Hopefully the OP has what they need re understanding now and can update here as appropriate.

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 16/08/2023 14:36

It’s quite bizarre that people are staying so categorically they probate isn’t needed when the OP themselves isn’t even sure how her parents owned the house.

Also her brothers situation is also unclear - and that could be problematic.

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 16/08/2023 14:36

Get proper advice @bizzey - for all your sakes.

LandRegRep1862 · 16/08/2023 14:51

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 16/08/2023 14:36

It’s quite bizarre that people are staying so categorically they probate isn’t needed when the OP themselves isn’t even sure how her parents owned the house.

Also her brothers situation is also unclear - and that could be problematic.

OP stated they both owned it hence being worried that they hadn’t updated that on the register. Sorry if I read that wrong.
How they held it, as in TIC or JT, is a separate issue and doesn’t affect the OP original query but was raised by others - I think we’re waiting for OP to confirm findings though