Neighbour wants to change garden boundary

[TakingAffence]

Garden boundaries are just wooden fences on a small early Victorian terrace. Narrow long gardens, roughly equal amounts of garden in wiggly lines and in patches with no fence at all. Historically everyone on the terrace was happy, done this way presumably over a sequence of owners to accommodate a big mature tree and various old rose bushes. I moved in ten years ago and haven’t changed anything.
New owners next door are extending and say that on the plans for their house, the fence lines are straight so now we must straighten. It’s my fence responsibility. It could mean the end of the nice old tree etc depending on where line is drawn and various of my shrubs. I’m keen to keep up a good relationship with everyone.

Do I have to change the fence line and pay for that as it’s my fence? Who should decide on the ground where the right line falls, if it’s straightened? Do I have to pay for any professional boundary advice/decision? Who should pay for taking down a big tree, big bushes etc if that needs to happen?

TLDR- Do plans going back over a century to when a property was built, override today’s reality as purchased?

Focus on the TPO.

You don't need to get any boundary info, the neighbour can get that.

https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/protecting-trees-and-woods/campaign-with-us/campaign-in-your-community/tree-preservation-orders/

where is the diagram?

You could also try registering the old tree under a Tree Preservation Order with the council if it is appreciated by everyone.

You don’t have to do anything. Boundaries which have become accepted over time take precedence to any plans which are often not very accurate anyway. You are under no obligation to put up a fence or move an existing one. Your neighbour should have made sure they were happy with what they were purchasing and it’s not your responsibility sort out any problems they may now have because they failed to do so.

I'd pay the £6 for the Land Registry plans so you at least have a starting point.

If the deeds say one thing but the garden has been fenced as it is for a certain length of time, you could argue that the fence is the boundary.

Don't agree or disagree to anything until you've got more information about this kind of thing.

You cannot have a fence on their land well this is the thing a boundary drawn on a plan if you scaled it onto the actual land it can span a lot wider than a fence. I mean just look at the size of the house on any plan in comparison to the line denoting the boundary.

First and foremost before you do anything is to read this excellent pinned post on Garden Law forum on boundaries by a solicitor and titled Put Your Tape Measure Away

https://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3149

Fixed boundary lines are better and with terraces it is easier at the house end, once you get 60ft down the gardens it is more problematic unless all the other plots surrounding the houses are absolutely precise.

However, I do find it pissy when someone moves into a property with an established boundary marked by a fence and then starts asking about moving the bloody thing.

Each council has a tree department ask their advice and they can check if its protected.

Is the tree close to the house end of the gardens? Is it in an area where they want the extension? Otherwise it seems odd that they'd make a big thing of it.

You don’t have to own the land or the tree to get a TPO on it. Please do this!

It needs to go through solicitors. They need to prove the boundary (and it is likely to cost them a lot of time and money to do so). If hasn’t been questioned in 20 years then you could claim adverse possession (I think, not an expert). If they pursue you, use the legal part of your home insurance.

Please share a diagram 🙏

The General Boundaries Rule (s.60 of the Land Registration Act) applies
“(1)The boundary of a registered estate as shown for the purposes of the register is a general boundary, unless shown as determined under this section. (2) a general boundary does not determine the exact line of the boundary

You have to consider the thickness of the red outline on the filed plan could be 50cm or more on the ground so would not account for/show curves around shrubs.

Just coming on to say exactly this. You also don't have to own the tree in question.

Thank you everyone these are all really helpful points

Hairpinleg the old tree is at the end of the gardens, not near the houses.

Put a tree preservation order TPO on the mature tree. At least it is a protection to its existence, if it's felled there are consequences.
As for the fence, ensure good dialogue and hope that the new neighbours accept that there has been a status quo in place for many years that has been amenable to all parties. Seek legal advice otherwise.

Ex OS and HMLR here. A Line on an Ordnance Survey map is an indication of a physical feature (hedge/fence/wall etc) and should not be assumed to be the legal property boundary. The plan registered with Land Registry takes the OS map and establishes the legal property boundary using the property deeds. This is then "the area delineated in red" in the property register and on the plan. There is no significance to the width of the red line, it's just a line. However, all mapping is generalised and there is a recognised margin of deviation, if I remember rightly, that's + or - 0.4 m at the largest scale which is 1:1250. What that means is that a slightly wiggly boundary would be generalised into a straight line on the map because it would a broadly straight line between the two ends. Any major kinks would be shown. This doesn't stop some unscrupulous twonks from trying it on, most boundary disputes are bloody mindedness and bullying. So basically, OP, do get a TPO on the tree and ignore the neighbours. It's a long established boundary.

It may not be as easy as ‘just getting a TPO’. My local council will only put them on certain types of tree. It is worth speaking to the tree officer in the planning department though.

You can't cut trees down during the bird nesting season anyway.

My top tip - I work in the planning dept of a council - would be to take lots of photos today. You don’t want to go out for the day or go on holiday and come back to find that the neighbour has put up their own fence or chopped down the tree. This has happened recently in my area and the neighbour’s photos were instrumental in the council being able to take action against the other neighbour who had done this.

I would also send them a letter putting them on notice that you will be seeking legal advice.

This isn’t true. You could have a fence/boundary marker that contained someone else’s land and if you can prove it has been that way in certain time frames/circumstances you can claim that land under adverse possession laws.

In general answer:

Title plans say they aren’t accurate and are just indicative.

I really would be extremely careful entering into any change at all - if you did decide to change the boundary I would want a solicitor involved and I would expect the neighbours to foot the bill.

Moving in and trying to alter a boundary would have me on high alert. Boundaries are serious stuff and can affect saleability. It’s also very entitled to expect someone to alter anything just because they are new owners. Particularly something disruptive and negatively impacting on the existing owners.

Boundaries change over time, and the land registry plan doesw not show a definitive boundary. The fence marks the boundary for all intents and purposes until proven otherwise. HMLR title plan is irrelevant. They are based on OS maps and are quite imprecise.

Cmon now. In general you can’t and adverse possession is incredibly difficult to succeed in these circumstances and I’d bet a months salary it wouldn’t. Lol

The op has had the same boundary for 10+ years.

You have said if it were deemed to have once been neighbour’s land she would have to adjust her boundary. That’s wrong.

The neighbour would need a surveyor and solicitor involved to progress this situation officially. If it was formally decided the land was once theirs aerial photos will show the boundaries have been unchanged for at least a decade. Which makes the land the ops in most cases.

The onus would be on the neighbours to do all the legwork and outlay the expense. Their opinion on the boundary and their assertion that the title plan proves it are both worthless.

So… no, she doesn’t have to simply change her boundary even if they deem the land theirs.

This happens a lot when people back onto parks/forest/fields. Where I live the council sends a surveyor out every few years to make sure no one has changed the boundaries and extended their garden into the park.

to make sure no one has changed the boundaries and extended their garden into the park.

My uncle did this when the council filled in a large pond. Over the years he gradually extended his boundary, eventually his garden was twice the size. The land was eventually sold to developers, whose surveyor just took the boundaries as they were. So my uncle got a lot of land for nothing!

I wish the people a few doors down from close relatives of mine had been clear about this last week when they had a crew with chainsaws demolishing three magnificent and enormous mature trees in their garden. No trace of them now remains. What happened to the many birds which must have been nesting there….well, you can imagine. It was sickening.