Garden office planning permission issue? FLATS not houses

[GardenOfficer]

Neighbours built a garden office during lockdown. They are leaseholders, council is the freeholder. It's in a conservation area. It does comply with the rules about being less than 2m high and less than 50% of the garden area. However my understanding is that because they have a flat, not the whole house, is that it is not automatically a permitted development.

I'm sure they'll have asked the freeholder for permission. However the freeholder then needed to apply for planning permission. This didn't happen.

I spoke in general terms to someone from the local conservation society, and to the council planning department (though it isn't an actual planning officer you get on the general phone line). Both of them agreed that planning permission should have been sought.

The issues are - firstly I think it deters the council tenant family in the upstairs flat from accessing their section of garden, which is the back half. Because they would have to be walking down the side of it. In fact they never use their garden. The conservation society person said this was exactly why planning would have been required, to prevent such situations as one flat dominating a garden / causing loss of amenity to another flat in the building (is that right?).

I'm the next-door neighbour and I resent having to listen to their business phone calls for 40 hours a week if I'm in my own garden, because the office has glass floor to ceiling windows so no sound insulation, and anyway they often have the door open.

I have now broached the subject with them and they have said they will look into it! What is likely to happen? I guess just that the freeholder will need to make a retrospective application, and probably it will be waved through? I do know that houses around here often have garden offices with no problem, but I don't know the situation with flats. Also, I guess now that they know of the possible planning issue, I think they would need to clarify/resolve it before they would be able to sell? Which they also indicated they would be looking to do at some point as the situation isn't ideal for anyone.

Thanks for any of your thoughts!

I can't imagine they didn't obtain permission from the freeholder for it. But neither they nor the freeholder then applied for PP, it just went up.

It sounds like a weird situation....what would happen if the upstairs flat also decided they wanted an office in their half of the garden? At best the garden would look very odd and at worst could it still be considered a garden if there are 2 substantial buildings in it and a tiny bit of greenery around?

Re the business calls all day, are you able to make out much detail? Only because my neighbour did this - she was a solicitor and after a bit I got fed up so just made a note of everything I heard, went round and said given I could identify exactly who you were talking about it's a data protection concern, wouldn't want me or someone on the street overhearing something they shouldn't and making a complaint to your business or the ico etc. I tried to say it nicely as a concern rather than a threat but it clearly put the wind up her as she takes all her calls indoors now! Obviously depending on the business they might not give a shit but data protection is a big thing now so it might be enough to make them think?

I used to live in a Victorian manor house converted in four flats - we got permission to build a garden office in 2021. We hadn't expected to get it, as it's a conservation area and the council had been REALLY funny about the colour the houses on our street were painted originally, but they were happy with the garden office as they appreciated the need to make the flats more functional, and it wasn't visible from the front of the house.

We did check in with our neighbours before we applied and they didn't mind; but I'm not aware of the council being overly fussed, as long as we agreed that we wouldn't build anything on "their" part of the garden and their access wouldn't be impeded.

I wouldn't expect them to be asked to remove this, based on what you've said; so I'd probably take the other tack and enquire with them about sound proofing somehow or using noise cancelling headphones etc; rather than reporting them and potentially ending any goodwill there, but that's based entirely on my experience with neighbour problems & garden offices for flats!

I was just wondering, do you think I have messed up their plans to sell their flat? I only learnt this was their intention when they told me moments after I'd told them I thought they needed planning permission.

Presumably they can't now sell until they have applied for and got it, or perhaps alternatively that they've made an application and they've got a written opinion from a planning officer stating that it's not likely to be an issue?

Because otherwise if it was raised with the new owners, they could be in trouble for having mis-sold their property.

Not that I am planning on causing more trouble - though I would look into seeing if I had any grounds to object if and when they do put in the application - but I am just curious to know if I have (unwittingly, as I didn't know they wanted to sell) buggered things up for them?

If they apply and get it there's no harm done. If they don't apply, and the planning authority don't pursue enforcement action before they sell, then it will become the new owners problem. If the planning authority issue an enforcement notice this is registered as a local land charge and would come up in the searches a solicitor makes when buying a property so owners would have notice of it.

Thanks for clarifying that, NalaNana.

Do you what the kind of timescale might be in this kind of situation for applying for and getting plannng permission from scratch?

Also, would this now count as a neighbour dispute that they would have to declare on a sale? ("Neighbour doesn't like our garden office and thinks we need PP which we haven't applied for"). Or not really, just by alerting any potential buyer to the planning issue they wouldn't have to mention neighbours not liking it?

I live in a conservation area, we had a home office installed last year.
Unfortunately it was not allowed under permitted development (my bad, a very minor planning breach however)
We applied for retrospective permission and it took about 8 (very stressful) weeks start to finish before it was granted

I think going for the noise nuisance angle is going to be more fruitful for you OP. This office sounds like it’s probably allowed , if the correct approach were to be followed.

8-10 weeks is the norm, your local council website will give a timeline. It is not a dispute yet as such. Retrospective permission or a certificate of lawfulness is all that may be needed.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Is your property a leasehold flat or a freehold house? Are your neighbours much affected by the office?

Right and if they can let the clock tick down to four years (it's already at two..) then I think even that wouldn't be required.

Thanks yes. I do think it also causes loss of amenity to the council flat above theirs because it discourages them from accessing their rear section of garden, but that wouldn't be a grounds I could raise anyway, it would have to come from them. And I have no idea how they feel about it.

Freehold house. It overlooks next doors garden, but we frosted the window that side. They are lovely and fine with it

I don’t think this would hold much weight. I lived in a row of terraces with gardens split into 3 (council was freeholder) and the rear gardens were almost universally unused and overgrown, including both of my upstairs neighbours. I actually paid to get their plots cleared (with their permission) as I was sick of looking at them.

Unless it actually obstructed the path to their garden I can’t see how it discourages use.

Sounds a bit of a less bothersome situation than here, then. The back half of the garden belongs to a separate flat which has council tenants, a family. Their access path goes along the side of the office which has wall to ceiling glass, no frosting. I've never seen the family use their garden since the office went up. Maybe they wouldn't chose to anyway but the presence of the office won't help!

Yes it's similar here, the council tenant's section of garden is overgrown. The previous tenant would hack it all back from time to time but these people don't, they just never go out there. In a way that's to my benefit since the back half of my garden is more secluded, though weeds will spread across. But my flowerbeds are in the front half which gets more light - and also now the noise from the office.

How significant would a noise need to be for it to be considered a nuisance? Someone on Zoom calls at normal conversational level for much of the working week in a garden office with the door open probably wouldn't count as a nuisance, would it, since people are allowed to talk in their own gardens and also to conduct business from home. But it IS a nuisance to have to hear it.

I have to say OP, you kind of sound hell bent on making this a problem which will escalate into a dispute which isn't good for anyone.

Being able to overhear them is unlikely to be a reason to be forced to knock it down. I can hear my neighbours when they're in the garden.

Frankly it is not for you to decide if the upstairs neighbour feels uncomfortable and you can't object on their behalf.

It wouldn't amount to a statutory nuisance. Noise is tricky because it is generally regulated by environmental health teams rather than the planning system although it can be considered where it relates to a lack of amenity. With that being said, it doesn't sound like it's particularly over and above what would be a reasonable use of a garden (albeit annoying for you).

I really do agree. I was trying to be gentle earlier. OP you are acting unreasonably to make a complaint.

The 4 years is from when the work was substantially completed until the council become aware of the work and write to the owner and inform them that it's in breach.
So the clock has not been ticking any more.
Once it is under enforcement it can take years to actually finish enforcement but that is unaffected by the 4 year rule.
Hope that helps

How significant would a noise need to be for it to be considered a nuisance? Someone on Zoom calls at normal conversational level for much of the working week in a garden office with the door open probably wouldn't count as a nuisance, would it, since people are allowed to talk in their own gardens and also to conduct business from home. But it IS a nuisance to have to hear it.

I don’t think that would count at all. As you say they could be sat all day talking to each other.

i have a garden office, I will be in online meetings for much of the day, with the door open. I’m still quieter than my next door neighbour who sits in the garden all day with the radio blasting and bellowing on the phone chatting to his mates or yelling down the garden to his wife.

Yes true, I can imagine that. Lawnmowers carry very far, too!

I did see your other posts before you had them deleted. I think you really need to speak to your neighbours because it all seems very hostile. Trying to get them into trouble for a shed because you've got an issue with their dog (which I would say is much more of a nuisance) is really going to end up in a massive dispute.

Is the dog thing sorted?