Trying to find out who owns the pavement.

[TheOrigRights]

I have a thread in property/DIY but now think I need legal advice.

An initial enquiry with a solicitor quoted £500-£700 plus VAT to look into it for me, which seems so high.

To summarise:
Courtyard of houses.
Unadopted land.
My Deeds show that I do not own the pavement outside my home.
My neighbour's deeds show all the pavement and car park area as part of her property.

How can I find out what this actually means?
I have lived here a long time. My neighbour is the 3rd occupant of that house since my time here. The 1st occupant got us all together, and we contributed a certain amount to put pea shingle down on the car park. The 2nd occupant didn't do anything, but I have since talked to her and she recalls there was something about that house needing to maintain the pavement and carpark.
The current occupant just shrugs and doesn't want to get involved at all.

Do solicitors have power to find out information that I can't find out myself?

You could contact the planning department of your local council or contact your local councillors, they will know who to contact to find out. Also if you have a problem with the area in question your councillor can help by contacting your neighbours on your behalf.

If you’ve ordered the office copy entries for your neighbours property and the deeds show it as belonging to her then it belongs to her.

Not sure what the query is. Your deeds probably show that you have a right if access over it.

The fee quote from your solicitor was not high by the way. That’s about 2 hours of work

So your neighbour owns the pavement.

Presumably you have rights to cross it.

She may or may not have an obligation to keep it in repair. Even if she does, trying to force her to is likely to be expensive.

What is it you actually want to accomplish here? Does the pavement need to be repaired?

@GoldenGorilla

So your neighbour owns the pavement.

Presumably you have rights to cross it.

She may or may not have an obligation to keep it in repair. Even if she does, trying to force her to is likely to be expensive.

What is it you actually want to accomplish here? Does the pavement need to be repaired?

Yes, it needs to be repaired (my thread in property explains this).

It's the 'she may or may not have an obligation' bit I want help with.
I am pretty sure someone must have an obligation to fix it, otherwise the whole area will eventually be a ruin.

@User76745333

If you’ve ordered the office copy entries for your neighbours property and the deeds show it as belonging to her then it belongs to her.

Not sure what the query is. Your deeds probably show that you have a right if access over it.

The fee quote from your solicitor was not high by the way. That’s about 2 hours of work

My query is about how to go about getting the pavement repaired.

@Mindymomo

You could contact the planning department of your local council or contact your local councillors, they will know who to contact to find out. Also if you have a problem with the area in question your councillor can help by contacting your neighbours on your behalf.

I have done this already. They were very quick to tell me it was nothing to do with them.

To be clear, before anyone suggests otherwise, this is not about getting someone else to pay for any repair. I am more than happy to pay for it to be fixed, but am reluctant to wade in fixing pavements which are not my responsibility, as it may well come back and bite me at some point.

have you read this?
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/who-is-responsible-for-the-maintenance-of-a-private-road-s8nhhqqxb

Planning departments don't hold details of ownership etc you need to go to the Land Registry for that. But it sounds like you already have the deeds for yours and your neighbour's properties so there isn't much more to find.
The deeds should have details of covenants which allow rights of way and maintenance. If they don't and you want to require your neighbours to maintain the land then you will need a solicitor. You could try a citizens advice bureau for advice

@Takingabreakagain

Planning departments don't hold details of ownership etc you need to go to the Land Registry for that. But it sounds like you already have the deeds for yours and your neighbour's properties so there isn't much more to find. The deeds should have details of covenants which allow rights of way and maintenance. If they don't and you want to require your neighbours to maintain the land then you will need a solicitor. You could try a citizens advice bureau for advice

Thank you, this is useful. Do you know if the Deeds I got from LR are comprehensive? Neither mine or neighbours showed anything about maintenance, just ownership.

In more modern courtyard developments it's common for the "shared" area (eg pavements, parking and turning areas to be transferred to one house owner (often the last buyer) with the other owners having rights and obligations relating to it. It's frequently done where there are a small number of properties - where there are more properties involved it''s more normal to have a management company.
There should be an original transfer with your title documents and filed at the Land Registry. This transfer will be between the developer and the first buyer of your house, and should contain details of who is responsible for what. If you don't have a copy of it you can get it from the Land Registry for £3.
Did you get anything from the solicitors acting for you on the purchase? It should have been explained to you.

I

[quote Ifailed]have you read this?
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/who-is-responsible-for-the-maintenance-of-a-private-road-s8nhhqqxb[/quote]
I haven't and it's behind a paywall, but it looks like it's exactly the issue I have.

Servient owner seems like the keyword.

If I can just find out whether I can go ahead and fix my bit w/o breaking any laws then that would be fine.

@redspook

In more modern courtyard developments it's common for the "shared" area (eg pavements, parking and turning areas to be transferred to one house owner (often the last buyer) with the other owners having rights and obligations relating to it. It's frequently done where there are a small number of properties - where there are more properties involved it''s more normal to have a management company. There should be an original transfer with your title documents and filed at the Land Registry. This transfer will be between the developer and the first buyer of your house, and should contain details of who is responsible for what. If you don't have a copy of it you can get it from the Land Registry for £3. Did you get anything from the solicitors acting for you on the purchase? It should have been explained to you.

I

This sounds like the issue. It's about 10 houses. I have the title from both mine and neighbour's house from LR. It shows who own what, but nothing about maintenance.

I bought this house mid 90s and maybe it was explained but I was young and naive.

Is there a Transfer on her title? Look in section C, the Charges Register. It will say that the Transfer dated YXZ has covenants on it. Then you can order a copy of that from the Land Registry.

@TheOrigRights
I haven't and it's behind a paywall, but it looks like it's exactly the issue I have.

Here's the text:

Who is responsible for the maintenance of a private road?
Mark Loveday
Friday August 23 2019, 12.01am, The Times

Q Access to our home is over a private road owned by a neighbour. All seven houses using the road have always shared the maintenance costs, but now one refuses to pay. Can he be made to contribute?

A At common law, the owner of land subject to a private right of way (“the servient owner”) is under no obligation to maintain it. If someone with a right to use the roadway (“the dominant owner”) wants it mended, it is up to them.

This unsatisfactory position is commonly modified by a provision in the deed that creates the right of way requiring any dominant owners to pay the servient owner a fixed proportion of maintenance costs. This will often be noted on the Land Registry

[quote Ifailed]@TheOrigRights
I haven't and it's behind a paywall, but it looks like it's exactly the issue I have.

Here's the text:

Who is responsible for the maintenance of a private road?
Mark Loveday
Friday August 23 2019, 12.01am, The Times

Q Access to our home is over a private road owned by a neighbour. All seven houses using the road have always shared the maintenance costs, but now one refuses to pay. Can he be made to contribute?

A At common law, the owner of land subject to a private right of way (“the servient owner”) is under no obligation to maintain it. If someone with a right to use the roadway (“the dominant owner”) wants it mended, it is up to them.

This unsatisfactory position is commonly modified by a provision in the deed that creates the right of way requiring any dominant owners to pay the servient owner a fixed proportion of maintenance costs. This will often be noted on the Land Registry[/quote]
Thank you so much. So if I can find out whether I'm the dominant owner then I can go ahead and fix the pavement.

The land registry deeds should be complete if they came directly from them. If there's nothing on there about maintenance then you could try and contact the developers if they are still around to see if they have any details of who the maintenance requirements were transferred to. Another option is that there was a maintenance company set up but you would usually be paying towards that.

you could try and contact the developers if they are still around to see if they have any details of who the maintenance requirements were transferred to

I suspect this is why developers do this, leave the issue with one of the buyers as owner of the land and walk away.

@Takingabreakagain

The land registry deeds should be complete if they came directly from them. If there's nothing on there about maintenance then you could try and contact the developers if they are still around to see if they have any details of who the maintenance requirements were transferred to. Another option is that there was a maintenance company set up but you would usually be paying towards that.

There's definitely no maintenance company, I know that.

The developer company are no longer around, but I know they were a local company so I might be able to dig around a bit. It's a rural development and the developers were local, with generations of the same family going back way back when!

@Ifailed

you could try and contact the developers if they are still around to see if they have any details of who the maintenance requirements were transferred to

I suspect this is why developers do this, leave the issue with one of the buyers as owner of the land and walk away.

Yes, that's what I've heard, too. It's the cheaper option.

Do her Deeds not have say mention of responsibility to repair/maintain?

@MinnieMountain

Is there a Transfer on her title? Look in section C, the Charges Register. It will say that the Transfer dated YXZ has covenants on it. Then you can order a copy of that from the Land Registry.

Thank you. I shall look into this.

God...it's so dull though!
If my neighbour was only a little bit more cooperative.

Do your deeds say that you have the right of way. It will say something like

“The right for the owner and his assigns to pass and repass on foot or with vehicles over the area shaded blue on the attached plan and contained in the land registered under title number ntxxxc”

@User76745333

Do your deeds say that you have the right of way. It will say something like

“The right for the owner and his assigns to pass and repass on foot or with vehicles over the area shaded blue on the attached plan and contained in the land registered under title number ntxxxc”

Yes I have right of way. That's not under dispute. I just want to know who/how to go about maintenance.

So then you are one of the dominant owner of the right of way. If the neighbour won’t maintain it and there is nothing in their deeds obliging them to maintain it then you can maintain it (although it would be sensible clearly to let them know of your plans). It won’t make the land yours though and you mustn’t do anything to alter it for example making part of it look different or sectioning it off. Only fixing your bit can therefore be problematic