Our stuff at PILs', they won't let us have it back.

[MilchandCookies]

The stuff is actually gold and silver coins worth a considerable sum. They have always been kept in their safe, as DH and I were in rented a while with nowhere to keep them. And then there are the savings books for accounts FIL opened in DCs' names, but refuses to let us have the books for.

Narcissistic arsehole FIL summoned DH to come and pick the coins up, saying he no longer wanted to be burdened by them. When DH arrived, FIL decided he wasn't going to let DH have them and took the opportunity to scream and shout at him instead. (We are in the process of going no-contact.) He laughed at the suggestion DH take the savings books. He said if he was going to save money for the children, it was going to be completely on his terms and had nothing to do with us.

When DH felt that FIL was going to get violent, he left, empty-handed. And very shaken.

How do we get the coins and the savings books? We can prove we are the legal owners of the coins, and as the accounts are in the children's names we are the legal owners of the books, too. But if he won't let us have them back, what can we do?

Many thanks.

[MovingOnUpMovingOnOut]

Did you open the accounts? If it was fil he's likely to be the trustee.

It is extremely unlikely the beneficiaries could have the accounts transferred over once they are adults unless they have a court order.

I have known circumstances where banks have paid out money to the beneficiary without the trustee's consent and the bank has had to replace the funds as it's their error.

[Wolpertinger]

Ah, if it's about financial control, leaving it may be the best. Keeping the kids' accounts open just gives him a way into their lives so if you can get the books back/accounts closed that would be the best option.

[NanaNina]

If you've never seen these coins, they might not actually exist.

[cleanandclothed]

moving it would depend on the type of trust. For a bare trust ( which is essentially a nominee arrangement) the beneficiary is legally entitled at 18. However you are right that with an unwilling trustee the bank is placed in a very awkward situation. These days if it is a large amount of money the banks would most likely have details of the age of the beneficiary and have a chat with the trustee at the appropriate time about transferring to the child-turned-adult.

[tribpot]

What a great premise for a novel - I'm not suggesting you're making this up, OP, but it would be a great twist if the mysterious gold and silver coins didn't exist at all, that the FIL had been controlling the family using smoke and mirrors all these years.

I would give up on the savings accounts, how could you stop the FIL from just opening new ones? Let him do what he likes and the dc can sort it out when they're adults.

I'd say give up on the mysterious gold and silver coins, too - they belong to FIL and trying to get them off him gives him way too much power over you.

[MovingOnUpMovingOnOut]

You'd think cleanandclothed but no

My trust law knowledge is rusty but I know may banks go for a very simple trust and don't bother training those who administer the products on any aspect of trust law.

I might have a look tomorrow but tonight I have

[NoPlanYet]

Do you know any details about the coins? It's entirely probable they're only worth £100ish each, so total under £1k. Obviously no-one would want to throw this much money away but if you're not so hard up you desperately need it then it might be best to leave it.

If you have details about them and would like more info about how much they might be worth (obv coins vary immensely! My guesstimation is based on them being modern gold/silver rather than eg rare Victorian) feel free to pm me

[BackInTheRealWorld]

I wouldn't bother with the savings books. That is nothing to do with you. It's between your fil and his grandchildren. Open your own savings account for them.

[MilchandCookies]

Each coin is an ounce, and DH said the current price for an ounce of gold is about €1000. When GFIL bought them years ago, they weren't that expensive though!

FIL has a lot more of his own money. DH and his brothers grew up knowing their inheritance was coming one day, but were taught to never expect it. Ironically, now that they are all grown up, standing on their own two feet and earning their own money (as instructed), FIL uses/used it as a tool to get them to do what he wants. Threats of disinheritance have come frequently over the years to all the brothers. The most recent ones resulted in the brothers telling him to leave it all to a cat sanctuary, they didn't want a penny of it. So now the tactic has changed, and he is trying to guilt them all into wanting it again by saying inheritance is a duty, blah blah.

Tribpot, he was only able to open these ones with our signatures. I wish this was all a story. As it is, it's our lives, and it's difficult and painful and very bloody complicated.

[VinceNoirLovesHowardMoon]

If you're not hard up for money then cut the fucker out. If your dh and his brothers have a good relationship, they can discuss between them what happens on fil 's death if he plays silly buggers with the inheritance but don't expect a penny. People like this thrive on control, if you make it clear you don't care about his bank books and his coins then you will thwart his attempts to control you all.

[weirdsister]

If dh was awarded the coins as he was growing up, then why did FIL keep possession of them once dh had reached 18 and moved away?
FIL is clearly never going to give them up.

[tribpot]

So I guess the coins are like this? I never even knew such things existed. (Not that there is any proof that your ones do!). I wonder why they're exempt from capital gains tax, interesting.

Do you need the money that they represent? Knowing your FIL you can't ever have assumed you would get access to them.

What's the end goal in getting these accounts closed? If they are, won't he just open new ones? Is this a battle worth fighting, when it's delaying the more important challenge of going NC with him?

I hope the siblings manage not to lose each other over his behaviour, it sounds horrendous.

[Lighteningirll]

Honestly I think you've got a bit OTT here the savings accounts are nothing to do with you if, as I think I understand FIl opened them for your dc and has paid into them they are his to give to dc at 18 why on earth should he give you the books? And you won't be able to close them, please don't lie to the bank especially as FIL can produce the book and prove you lied to get your hands on the accounts. That really isn't on. The coind, well it's a shame but your FIL seems to have control over those as they are 'inheritance' ie not yours yet. Did your dh grandfathers stipulate when the coins he bought were to be passed on? You may have a claim to those then but otherwise it sounds like the coins are an on going inheritance each generation holds in trust so again you aren't really entitled to anything. Honestly if you are going nc just do it and stop saying they are holding onto your stuff because they aren't you didn't work for, pay for, buy anything here you maybe inherited some of the coins but probably not.

[eddielizzard]

yes i'd walk away.

you say you want to close the dc's accounts and open ones yourselves. do that anyway. forget about those accounts and the coins. it's your fil's way of controlling you.

and going nc sounds like a very good idea.

[insancerre]

I would just walk away from it all

You haven't lost anything as you never had the coins or money in the first place

[LynetteScavo]

Id walk away. I'd tell the DC when they are adults about the savings accounts and let them decide what they want to do.

I doubt FIL will get rid if the coins as it gives him something to hold over your DH....one day your DH will get the coins, but if you don't desperately need the money now just wait patiently.

[titchy]

I suspect you were signing that your dc's were eligible to receive the interest tax-free. Only parents can make that declaration. It doesn't negate the fact that your fil is the trustee and as such you have no right to manage the accounts.

Walk away.

[Fishface77]

I would walk away.
It's being used to control you. It was never physically yours in the first place and you don't need any of it.
He's saving for his grandkids which he can do by other means so if he gives you the books it means nothing.
Leave him to it. If your going nc go nc because at the moment he's still controlling you.

[MilchandCookies]

The coins already belong to DH. They are his. But they have always been kept in the safe at PILs', because up until 18 months ago we had no place to store them safely, and we had a reasonably civil relationship with PIL. There had been no reason to take them. The same applies to the other brothers' coins. (Yes, Tribpot, they are just like that.)

The reason DH went to get them is because FIL demanded he did. We got a letter saying that he no longer wanted to be burdened with looking after them for us if we weren't going to "let" him be a part of our lives. So DH dutifully went to pick them up. We would never have even bothered if FIL hadn't asked. When DH arrived, as I said, FIL just screamed and shouted and refused to let DH take them with him. So DH left.

The accounts are in DCs' names, and we as parents are the signatories with power-of-attorney until the children are 18. FIL cannot empty or close the account. We cannot do that either unless we have the books. I haven't lied to the bank ever, which is why I couldn't report them lost -- the bank knows the books are with FIL. They have also just confirmed the books are the property of the account holder, i.e. DC, or us, while the children are under 18. Their advice is to leave the books with FIL and let the children decide what to do when they are adults. FIL can stop paying in at any time, obviously, and if he does the bank will let us know (and give us the option of taking over the payments or letting the account be closed automatically due to no payment).

My original post was wondering what our next step would be if we wanted to get them back. Solicitor's letter/small claims court seems like the logical thing to do, if we really want to go down that road. Which I'm not sure we do now. I think everyone's suggestion of walking away is the most sensible thing to do. He needs us to keep playing this game in order to have power over us, and if we don't play, we can't lose.

The brothers are so far sticking together, thank goodness, but none of the others are ready to go no-contact. FIL plays them off against each other constantly, which is horrible.

[GiddyOnZackHunt]

Pursuing this keeps you involved with him on some level. That's giving him power.
Totally disengaging is the only way to remove his power.

[MilchandCookies]

They send the DC presents for birthdays, Christmas, etc. What do we do with them if we go completely no-contact? So far over the last year we have sent thank-yous, but I don't even want that anymore. Should we send presents back? Throw them away?

And what do we tell the DC? DD is nearly 4 and asks whether we are going to visit PIL anytime soon. So far we've just said they haven't been very kind to us, so we don't want to see them. She accepts that at that moment, but still asks again every so often. DS is too young to remember them.

[nancy75]

Is there a mil in any of this? What does she have to say about it all?

[MilchandCookies]

Yes, there is. MIL is abused by FIL on all levels. She is terrified of him and would never step out of line. She is no longer in contact with her own family because FIL engineered a huge fall-out (over money, surprise, surprise). She has no access to money, no bank account, no idea how to live in the real world. She is his slave, and does everything he says. She used to tell me how unhappy she was and how she wished she could leave him. But now, fully Stockholmed-syndromed, she has lied about us all, fueled his anger and fire by making up things that never happened, and says she agrees wholeheartedly with whatever FIL says.

It's awful. DH and I tried for years to help her, but we can't save her. It's so sad.

[MovingOnUpMovingOnOut]

It is extremely unlikely you have "power of attorney" for a child's account. It is much more likely it is just held in trust and that is different to power of attorney.

[redshoeblueshoe]

I'd return all presents marked no longer at this address
Its very hard going NC, but you need to walk away and don't look back.
It is also very satisfying not having to dance to someone else's tune and still being vilified.
Forget the coins, forget the accounts. Good luck