Advice wanted please, we're talking divorce :(

[ChangeAfoot]

Feeling nervous about posting at all about this - have name-changed for the occasion.

H and I are discussing divorce. He tells me that "what would happen" were we to split is that we would sell the family home, both buy flats capable of housing our two children (both pre-school age), and then have shared custody. He very much wants shared custody; I do not. At the moment there is a sizeable chunk of equity in the house, we have been married 3 years; together for 10. I haven't worked since the children were born (we moved abroad when I was pregnant for his work and have only recently returned). I am very keen to get back to work but being realistic this will have to be in a new area or at a much lower level - my work is completely unworkable with children as I often worked away from home and doing crazy hours (freelance).

THe house is not in my name, it was bought using some money H received.

My two main fears are that he stands a chance of getting joint custody, and that we would have to sell the house and get two flats. I know I need to go and see a family lawyer, am going to set about researching and making an appointment. But in the meantime can someone shed light on what might happen in this instance? He's a hands-on dad but has always worked full-time and frankly hasn't ever bought an item of clothing and barely made them a meal since they were born... ... will I lose my kids to this extent? :(

[ChangeAfoot]

Thanks all, I appreciate the down-to-earth responses. :)

I'm feeling a bit more calm. In fact I'm feeling great today compared to yesterday. toosoppy - of course as time goes on all these specifics will become more clear. I am not suggesting I don't want to hand them over to him at all for overnight stays, I suppose I am thinking more about a traditional 'every other weekend; one night during the week' kind of set up (sorry I don't think I'm writing clearly in previous posts; am too het up). I know though that he won't consider that to be frequent enough, and so I think that's where my threshold is for overnight stays. Other than that, I would also be amenable to other agreed visits/access. This is all very early days though - he only "announced" his wish to divorce 36 hours ago! - so I haven't given it that much thought yet! Thank you for encouraging me to think about it; it's helping me.

RedHelen - I'm most certainly not ignoring other people's experiences, and as I said, am opting to think conservatively given what my friend advised. Bear in mind there are other assets than the marital home; plus the fact that the marital home is not oversized (3 beds for a 3 person family post-divorce) and is extremely cheap to run compared to other options. I'm not sure what health problems of mine you are referring to in your second post btw.

[RedHelenB]

Sorry., I was replying to Collaberate re going to a dr!

[ivykaty44]

change

on the one hand you don't want him in your life and then say he can come around every night to see the children, I am not having a go at you but the two don't make sense if you put them together.

Why not start at one week night and every other weekend and if he says he wants more then possibly suggest a weekend starts on a thursday and finishes on a Monday morning

[ChangeAfoot]

Lol RedHelen :)

ivy - yes, I can see us coming to some agreements along those lines. I'm not sure if I spelt it out earlier in the thread but my H was basically suggesting that he wanted us to have a set up, from the divorce onwards, where we both worked full time and put the DC into childcare 8-6 full time, and then basically split the week up so one half of the week they'd be collected by him and taken back to his residence, and me the other half. THAT sort of set-up is what I'm massively opposed to.

[larrygrylls]

Change,

Why do you keep saying the marital home is "cheap to run"? You cannot forget the equity that you have in it. I think you are thinking of the mortgage cost relative to the value of the house and forgetting the sunk equity, which could be invested. Also, is the mortgage interest only or repayment. If the former, then you should really be putting additional monies aside to pay off the principal and factor that into the costs of ownership. A low interest rate is great, but not the be all and end all of accurately costing your ownership.

Living in what I regard as a fairly average 5 bed house in outer London which is worth circa 1.4mio, I totally see where you are coming from when you say that you regard your house as a good cheap option. On the other hand, I know families who would say that you could move further out and get a decent 3 bed house for £450k, releasing £250k of equity.

Unfortunately, divorce is costly to all concerned and hard choices need to be made. My parents sold the house I grew up in for £145k (about 25 years ago). It last traded changed hands for £2.4mio. Even 6 months later, it would have fetched £200k+ but it was a forced sale in a crappy market in the middle of a very bitter divorce. Of course people need to divorce if they are making one another (and the children) miserable. However, there are definitely better and worse ways of doing it.

[larrygrylls]

Change,

In your last post, I think your husband is just angrily posturing. His idea is completely unrealistic. You have to be allowed time to make a gradual adjustment back to work, as do your children. No court would support his position.

Ultimately, the court will consider the childrens' best interests and that is clearly not being shoved into 10 hours a day childcare in the middle of another huge adjustment in their lives.

[ChangeAfoot]

Thanks larry. Thanksfully though, those other families who say I should move and release the equity won't be the ones in charge of my fate. Of course I could live somewhere more cheaply, almost all of us could. It's not what this is about. What I'm saying is that I recently went to look around a flat which is in the next road to mine, with a friend who was looking to move into the area with her daughter. For a 2-bed ex-LA flat in frankly dire condition, the rent was £1400 per month (and this is considered a relatively cheap rental part of London)! I was shocked. Our mortgage is a third of that. You do raise good points about the equity and investment however

We've had emails this afternoon, and at the moment are being reasonable towards each other. He seemed to think we'd be eligible for legal aid but I've found out for sure that that isn't the case. I've also made an appointment to see a lawyer next Weds, and have informed him of this. I have no money to pay for a lawyer so we need to discuss how it's going to work. He is also going to see a lawyer; I don't think he thought it was necessary prior to mediation but I think it is. My friend last night didn't think mediation would work for us due to the discrepancies in our position, but it's cheap so has to at least be worth an opening shot.

Just to add insult to injury, the first of my DC has just been sent home from nursery with what looks like chicken pox. Oh joy. At least I'll have lots of time at home to do my research!

[splintersinmebum]

"the unfaithfulness, non-stop misery, and constant blaming of me for all his ills over the past ten years" plus the BiPolar Disorder (diagnosed by you) and schizophrenia ... and you decided to have children with him?

I'd love to hear his side of the story ... fortunately the court will.

[ChangeAfoot]

Ah thank you splinters.

(By the way, it wasn't bipolar, but rather Borderline Personality Disorder that I was referring to.)

[ChangeAfoot]

Is this normal?? He is absolutely ADAMANT that he's going to get 50 50 residency of the children and that we will sell the house. He keeps chanting it at me and taunting me with it, knowing it's upsetting me :(

[MOSagain]

IGNORE, IGNORE, IGNORE
No, it is not normal, but then from the sounds of it, neither is he. He is trying to wind him up, don't let him.
Tell him you've sought legal advice (several family lawyers have posted on here) and you have been advised that 50/50 is NOT normal. Then let HIM get upset x

[MOSagain]

sorry, meant, he is trying to wind YOU up

[splintersinmebum]

Is he planning on moving out of the house?

[ChangeAfoot]

MOS - THANK YOU so much for your post. It's incredibly helpful to get opinions from lawyers on here, because of course nobody is gunning for my business and therefore has no business in giving me an over-optimistic opinion. Not that I think that in general of lawyers, but I am now terrified that something is happening behind the scenes of which I'm unaware, and that may unwittingly jeopardise my position. Two lawyers (a partner at a top London firm plus the one I'm going to see next week) plus a family law barrister have all said exactly the same thing to me, but I'm getting very nervous that there's something he'll pull out of the bag that will take me by surprise. Of course, that is kind of the name of the game, isn't it? :(

[Lonecatwithkitten]

Change I think one of things he is forgetting or is failing to tell his lawyers is about the BTL property equity that does make a difference.
Property wise I have been in a not dissimilar position to you (income wise very different). When we added up the equity in all the properties and divided it in two the family home was roughly half and the other properties roughly half.

[ChangeAfoot]

Thank you. That's the road my friend was going down when she advised me (very positively). However the BTLs were bought before we met, assume that makes a difference..? Had a very depressing chat with H last night where he announced that he basically intends to totally step back from his career, that he thinks he is crap at what he does anyway and that everyone thinks so (first I've heard of it and we have always talked very frankly about his career; I have always been very supportive of him), and that the cheap mortgage on this house is precarious so we definitely need to sell. I am terrified, perhaps I'm just a big wuss :(

[larrygrylls]

Change,

You do have equity of circa £700k. The most precarious thing is his earnings. I do think that you (to some extent) need to keep him onside until you get your own career up and running again. The one thing he can do to really spite you is stop working. Of course, that will damage his children and himself as well. If you are still communicating at all, I think that is the one thing that you need to drum into him. How does he want to be remembered as a father? Someone who decided to allow his family to go short when his relationship foundered or someone who stepped up and put his children first?

I am not sure how a cheap mortgage can be "precarious". Most mortgages have standard Ts and Cs and cannot be withdrawn as long as they are serviced. I suspect yours will be a base rate tracker from before they got expensive. Of course interest rates could go up (if that is what he means) but they are unlikely to do so anytime soon.

I think your husband is just depressed and angry and hurling his toys out of the cot. If you could live separately from now on somehow, my suspicion is that things could be better for both of you. He could rent for a while at least, no?

[AlbertaCampion]

Sounds to me like he's been planning this for a while: I wonder how the courts will view his sudden epiphany, at this potentially e time, that he wants to step back from his high-earning career? (I don't know the answer; Collaborate or BabyBarrister might though!)

In my humble IANAL opinion, this whole legal aid thing is a red herring. You're a wealthy couple living in a nice part of London, with a smattering of properties up and down the country and assets in the high six figures. Why would you be entitled to legal aid? Do you not have access to shared funds? This husband of yours sounds like a crafty one: were I in your position, I'd get the best lawyer I could afford.

Finally, two small points. It isn't true that top firms don't offer free sessions, so don't give up the hunt. I can think of at least one good family law firm in Central London which does free sessions. Also, a Mesher order isn't necessarily the best solution. If you still have to sell the property down the line, there is no guarantee that you will be able to rehouse yourself adequately.

[AlbertaCampion]

*first line: potentially expensive time.

[RedHelenB]

Alberta - courts can only go on the here & now - they can't say to anyone - take a high powered job so you can pay maintenance. The trouble with relying on anything above CSA rate is that it causes resentment. ex#s get new partners who resent paying out to ex wife etc.

At the end of the day divorce is life changing & financially things will change.

Can you afford to keep paying the mortgage on tax credits & child benefit, that's the crux of the matter if your husband is n't planiing on working?

[ivykaty44]

change - he is forgetting when he says we definitely need to sell - there is no we any more and unlike when you are married and you agree to things.. well you don't anymore and he is going to have to get used to the fact that we means his thoughts and you can have your own and you don't want to sell - then you don't have to agree to it.

He seems to be in this bubble of he can do what he likes but no he can't just sell the house - it is your family one.

I wouldn't get into a debate about it - just say I will seek advise

[ChangeAfoot]

Thanks all, lots of food for thought.

larry (equity is a bit less than that, think it's nearer 550-575k) just to clarify, he's not said as such that he doesn't want to get a job, more that he doesn't want to do the same kind of work or have the same kind of stress. He does have back-up for this in that he has an illness which he manages quite badly when he works. I have to say that I think this is a problem with him rather than with the job, he has been like this the entire time that I've known him and the only time he manages his illness better is when he doesn't work at all. And even then only for short periods, then his depression gets the better of him and we're back to square one. It is things like this I am looking forward to being shot of, sorry if that makes me sound unsympathetic - I am not - I have bent over backwards to try and help him, researched ways to help, offered solutions, cooked specific meals and offered to make special lunches for him to take to work. The bottom line I think is that when he is in a situation where he is expected to do something for somebody else (ie. in a JOB) he finds it very difficult to take care of his needs too, because he finds it hard to admit that he is anything other than an alpha-male. (Sorry that was all a bit of a digression..)

He won't move out and rent, he refuses. I agree with you re. your other points and we definitely need to stay on side, if possible. The children are really helping with this, even if we have a row (in private in the house) we are soon smiling at each other at their little antics.) :)

Alberta thank you for your post. I agree with you, and agree too about the LA. I thought I might be eligible just because I have no access to money, but now I've researched it it makes perfect sense. I don't have access to shared funds - I have a joint account Amex card I can use but of course is not accepted in many places and we have no joint account. He has just put £100 in my personal bank account which I'm really fucked off about - £100? How long is that meant to last me and DC??! I don't feel as though the LA thing is an injustice - I am not amongst the neediest people in the country! I am very surprised that my extremely intelligent and sussed H would think for a moment that we would be.

RedHelen - that is what I would expect re. the courts, although the family barrister said differently to me when we met last week - ie that the courts would expect him to fulfil his commitments and to make all efforts to get a decent job, and would not look favourably upon any perceived manipulation. It wasn't particularly relevant at the time we talked so I didn't pursue that line of thinking with her, but was surprised to hear her say that.

ivy - I must get my matrimonial right put on the deeds to this house, but yes, agree with you.

[RedHelenB]

Thing is, a court can't order him to pay money in maintenance that he isn't earning which is why you need to do your sums to see if you can afford the mortgage etc on tax credits. If work is contributing to illness on his part it won;t be seen in an unfavourable light if he goes for a less stressful job that allows him more time with the children & maybe allows you the chance to work more easily.

[RedHelenB]

When I divorced I asked my solicitor what they would say to my ex & that then helped me to see what was possible.

[ChangeAfoot]

I'm getting more nervous with every post you make RedH I feel as though he is deliberately fucking up our finances, which would be bad enough were we to stay together, but in taking this step "back" (I have no idea what he means), we are likely to both be extremely stretched in terms of accommodation and standard of living. In time I'm sure I could earn a decent wage but I can't believe I'd even be able to cover childcare costs to start with. I can't believe I'm going to be able to play nicely if I feel that he's doing this to prove a point. And it does feel like that. The speech I got last night about how he feels about his job felt extremely staged, and had him saying all sorts I've never heard him express over our ten years about jobs he's done during that time and how they've all been a failure. They haven't, he's very successful - it just feels like he's deliberately setting up a sob story in order to benefit him at this time.