Advice wanted please, we're talking divorce :(

[ChangeAfoot]

Feeling nervous about posting at all about this - have name-changed for the occasion.

H and I are discussing divorce. He tells me that "what would happen" were we to split is that we would sell the family home, both buy flats capable of housing our two children (both pre-school age), and then have shared custody. He very much wants shared custody; I do not. At the moment there is a sizeable chunk of equity in the house, we have been married 3 years; together for 10. I haven't worked since the children were born (we moved abroad when I was pregnant for his work and have only recently returned). I am very keen to get back to work but being realistic this will have to be in a new area or at a much lower level - my work is completely unworkable with children as I often worked away from home and doing crazy hours (freelance).

THe house is not in my name, it was bought using some money H received.

My two main fears are that he stands a chance of getting joint custody, and that we would have to sell the house and get two flats. I know I need to go and see a family lawyer, am going to set about researching and making an appointment. But in the meantime can someone shed light on what might happen in this instance? He's a hands-on dad but has always worked full-time and frankly hasn't ever bought an item of clothing and barely made them a meal since they were born... ... will I lose my kids to this extent? :(

[kirsty75005]

@Change. I'm sorry I hurt you at a difficult time : I didn't mean to. I didn't say you were greedy, and for what's it worth, I didn't think it either, I'm very sorry if you thought that was what I was saying because I can well understand how hurtful it would be. I just thought he might not be talking about leaving his job as a way of getting at you, and didn't think enough about your situation before posting why I thought he might be genuine. Probably I was wrong to post.

[ChangeAfoot]

Are you a family lawyer toosoppy? (Sorry if you've said and I missed it ) Don't worry, I'm not stupid enough to think there won't be a change in circumstances - for one thing I know I now need to get back to work rather than it being a gradual movement in that direction. I'm not bothered about most material goods and we don't live an extravagant life by many people's standards. But we do live in London, which is expensive to buy in. And I currently have no income and almost no mortgage capacity. (As a matter of interest, two of the three reasons you cite that you've seen husbands downsize for their jobs sound to me as though they were to spite the wife; not just the third!)

MOS - thanks once again, and for the PMs - it's all very much appreciated.

[toosoppyforwords]

I have also seen situations where Husbands HAVE resigned from well paid jobs and taken on part time work etc. SOme of these were to avoid maintenance, some was genuinely due to stress and wanting career changes and more quality time as a father, others were most definitely to spite the ex wife and cause problems. I hope your husband doesn't turn out to be in that category.
THe only other word of caution i would say is to give offers full and fair consideration. I know of many situations where the wife has rejected offers, only to then be awarded less once it gets to court. Obviously take proper legal advice on that but dont necessarily assume you can always get more

I think it is vey early days and hopefully you and your husband will get to a point of general ageement without turning it into a massive fight which is expensive and emotionally draining.

Good luck

[toosoppyforwords]

I'm not going to make suggestions as to what i think is fair and reasonable - its certainly not my place to do so. I think what some posters are eluding to is that unless you are very wealthy (and i'm talking big bucks here) 2 households are more expensive to run than living as one family and for that reason more often than not the status quo cannot be maintained (at least not long term) and a drop in living standards is inevitable for both parties. WHile you naturally dont want a drop in standards, neither will your husband

For that reason whilst it is understandable that you wish to maintain your current standard of living, and want to stay in the family home and want custody of your children, it might not be possible in the eyes of the legal system and courts to achieve that. Only yours and your husbands solicitors can argue and agree that. Of course when you are together you make decisions to the best of your family which sometimes simply have to change if circumstances do such as family break up.

Only your solicitor can advise what is realistic or not. Just a word of caution - while your solicitor will be saying that you are in a good position and likely to get x and y, your husbands solicitor will be telling him the opposite most likely. I have seen situations where wives have rejected every offer made to them and have ended up with less once it gets to court.

I would just tread carefully and give things full consideration with advice from your legal person

[MOSagain]

Indeed changeafoot of course that is why you posted in legal.

Sadly, for every qualified family lawyer that posts on these threads there are about 10 posters that do not have legal qualifications. Many post from their own personal experiences and these can be extremely helpful. However, sadly some give incorrect and bad advice and I've seen one particular poster time and time again give advice which is illegal.

I'm glad you have contacted some family lawyers and hope that you find one that you are happy with. In the meantime, I hope that you can continue to get advice and support on here.

[ChangeAfoot]

Thank you LifeinBlue and commiserations that you think your marriage might be heading the same way.

kirsty - and this is why I posted this in Legal Matters rather than AIBU or similar. I'm not interested in comparisons or in being made to feel "greedy" by wanting anything other than living vaguely above the breadline. I am not interested in insinuation that I am somehow wanting my H to kill himself in a stressful job rather than "downsize" and be a more hands-on parent. I am interested in minimal disruption for my children, I am interested in preserving my and our financial future as much as should be expected in lieu of my marriage and H's status as their father.

[kirsty75005]

@change. If you as a couple have at least 600K of equity, and he's currently on 150-250K, how stretched can you be, even if he takes a big pay cut ? Suppose he went down to half of that, that would still make him a very high earner. (It's a genuine question, I don't live in London, maybe I'm being unreasonable, but the figures on this thread look like megabucks to me. I understand that it's really hard to have a big fall in standard of living, but you are so far above the breadline, are you really not going to be able to manage after a fall ? )

[kirsty75005]

@Change. I am not a lawyer and I'm not going to comment on anything legal. I'm not even going to comment on the divorce, I'm going to try and see your husband's desire to downsize from his point of view.

If I had a friend who was working very long hours in a stressful but very highly-paid job, who had mental health problems linked to the job, who didn't get to see much of their children, whose wife didn't work and who owned outright (assuming a 50-50 split) at least 300,000 pounds of equity, and that friend asked me for advice, I would say the following :

"Get the hell out of that job, it's killing you, and you don't need it. You are very wealthy and you could take a big pay cut and still provide reasonably for your family, especially if your wife took on a bit of part time work. I know families with a perfectly reasonable standard of living in London with less than half your income, and once a reasonable standard of living is assured, less stress and more time with parents is much more important to kids than more material goods. You will never get back the time for your children or yourself that you are missing out on now."

I understand that you're angry because marriage break-ups are hard, and he has certainly behaved badly at points, hence you're tending to see all his decisions as an attack on you, or a strategy to hurt you; and that's understandable - but from an outsider's point of view, downsizing sounds like right thing for him. I don't think you should assume that he's doing it to hurt you because of the divorce. It sounds more as if the two decisions (divorcing and downsizing) go together because the problems with the job and the problems with the marriage are closely intertwined.

[LifeinBlue]

change I am not a lawyer. I don't have much practical advice to offer (except every other weekend and one visit midweek is normal with everyone I know who's divorced).

But I'm in a similar position. Terribly unhappy in my marriage and my dh sounds very similar to yours. We haven't talked about separating. Like you, the emotional and financial costs would be huge.

I think you've had some good and kind advice on here (and one or two ridiculously unhelpful comments which I hope you can ignore).

Anyway, you have my heartfelt sympathies.

[RedHelenB]

I'm not meaning to make you feel nervous but it also doesn't pay to bury your head in the sand & think things will go on financially as they always have done. But with that amount of equity between you you should both be able to be housed.

[ChangeAfoot]

PS: good tip re. asking sols what they'd say to ex.

[ChangeAfoot]

I'm getting more nervous with every post you make RedH I feel as though he is deliberately fucking up our finances, which would be bad enough were we to stay together, but in taking this step "back" (I have no idea what he means), we are likely to both be extremely stretched in terms of accommodation and standard of living. In time I'm sure I could earn a decent wage but I can't believe I'd even be able to cover childcare costs to start with. I can't believe I'm going to be able to play nicely if I feel that he's doing this to prove a point. And it does feel like that. The speech I got last night about how he feels about his job felt extremely staged, and had him saying all sorts I've never heard him express over our ten years about jobs he's done during that time and how they've all been a failure. They haven't, he's very successful - it just feels like he's deliberately setting up a sob story in order to benefit him at this time.

[RedHelenB]

When I divorced I asked my solicitor what they would say to my ex & that then helped me to see what was possible.

[RedHelenB]

Thing is, a court can't order him to pay money in maintenance that he isn't earning which is why you need to do your sums to see if you can afford the mortgage etc on tax credits. If work is contributing to illness on his part it won;t be seen in an unfavourable light if he goes for a less stressful job that allows him more time with the children & maybe allows you the chance to work more easily.

[ChangeAfoot]

Thanks all, lots of food for thought.

larry (equity is a bit less than that, think it's nearer 550-575k) just to clarify, he's not said as such that he doesn't want to get a job, more that he doesn't want to do the same kind of work or have the same kind of stress. He does have back-up for this in that he has an illness which he manages quite badly when he works. I have to say that I think this is a problem with him rather than with the job, he has been like this the entire time that I've known him and the only time he manages his illness better is when he doesn't work at all. And even then only for short periods, then his depression gets the better of him and we're back to square one. It is things like this I am looking forward to being shot of, sorry if that makes me sound unsympathetic - I am not - I have bent over backwards to try and help him, researched ways to help, offered solutions, cooked specific meals and offered to make special lunches for him to take to work. The bottom line I think is that when he is in a situation where he is expected to do something for somebody else (ie. in a JOB) he finds it very difficult to take care of his needs too, because he finds it hard to admit that he is anything other than an alpha-male. (Sorry that was all a bit of a digression..)

He won't move out and rent, he refuses. I agree with you re. your other points and we definitely need to stay on side, if possible. The children are really helping with this, even if we have a row (in private in the house) we are soon smiling at each other at their little antics.) :)

Alberta thank you for your post. I agree with you, and agree too about the LA. I thought I might be eligible just because I have no access to money, but now I've researched it it makes perfect sense. I don't have access to shared funds - I have a joint account Amex card I can use but of course is not accepted in many places and we have no joint account. He has just put £100 in my personal bank account which I'm really fucked off about - £100? How long is that meant to last me and DC??! I don't feel as though the LA thing is an injustice - I am not amongst the neediest people in the country! I am very surprised that my extremely intelligent and sussed H would think for a moment that we would be.

RedHelen - that is what I would expect re. the courts, although the family barrister said differently to me when we met last week - ie that the courts would expect him to fulfil his commitments and to make all efforts to get a decent job, and would not look favourably upon any perceived manipulation. It wasn't particularly relevant at the time we talked so I didn't pursue that line of thinking with her, but was surprised to hear her say that.

ivy - I must get my matrimonial right put on the deeds to this house, but yes, agree with you.

[ivykaty44]

change - he is forgetting when he says we definitely need to sell - there is no we any more and unlike when you are married and you agree to things.. well you don't anymore and he is going to have to get used to the fact that we means his thoughts and you can have your own and you don't want to sell - then you don't have to agree to it.

He seems to be in this bubble of he can do what he likes but no he can't just sell the house - it is your family one.

I wouldn't get into a debate about it - just say I will seek advise

[RedHelenB]

Alberta - courts can only go on the here & now - they can't say to anyone - take a high powered job so you can pay maintenance. The trouble with relying on anything above CSA rate is that it causes resentment. ex#s get new partners who resent paying out to ex wife etc.

At the end of the day divorce is life changing & financially things will change.

Can you afford to keep paying the mortgage on tax credits & child benefit, that's the crux of the matter if your husband is n't planiing on working?

[AlbertaCampion]

*first line: potentially expensive time.

[AlbertaCampion]

Sounds to me like he's been planning this for a while: I wonder how the courts will view his sudden epiphany, at this potentially e time, that he wants to step back from his high-earning career? (I don't know the answer; Collaborate or BabyBarrister might though!)

In my humble IANAL opinion, this whole legal aid thing is a red herring. You're a wealthy couple living in a nice part of London, with a smattering of properties up and down the country and assets in the high six figures. Why would you be entitled to legal aid? Do you not have access to shared funds? This husband of yours sounds like a crafty one: were I in your position, I'd get the best lawyer I could afford.

Finally, two small points. It isn't true that top firms don't offer free sessions, so don't give up the hunt. I can think of at least one good family law firm in Central London which does free sessions. Also, a Mesher order isn't necessarily the best solution. If you still have to sell the property down the line, there is no guarantee that you will be able to rehouse yourself adequately.

[larrygrylls]

Change,

You do have equity of circa £700k. The most precarious thing is his earnings. I do think that you (to some extent) need to keep him onside until you get your own career up and running again. The one thing he can do to really spite you is stop working. Of course, that will damage his children and himself as well. If you are still communicating at all, I think that is the one thing that you need to drum into him. How does he want to be remembered as a father? Someone who decided to allow his family to go short when his relationship foundered or someone who stepped up and put his children first?

I am not sure how a cheap mortgage can be "precarious". Most mortgages have standard Ts and Cs and cannot be withdrawn as long as they are serviced. I suspect yours will be a base rate tracker from before they got expensive. Of course interest rates could go up (if that is what he means) but they are unlikely to do so anytime soon.

I think your husband is just depressed and angry and hurling his toys out of the cot. If you could live separately from now on somehow, my suspicion is that things could be better for both of you. He could rent for a while at least, no?

[ChangeAfoot]

Thank you. That's the road my friend was going down when she advised me (very positively). However the BTLs were bought before we met, assume that makes a difference..? Had a very depressing chat with H last night where he announced that he basically intends to totally step back from his career, that he thinks he is crap at what he does anyway and that everyone thinks so (first I've heard of it and we have always talked very frankly about his career; I have always been very supportive of him), and that the cheap mortgage on this house is precarious so we definitely need to sell. I am terrified, perhaps I'm just a big wuss :(

[Lonecatwithkitten]

Change I think one of things he is forgetting or is failing to tell his lawyers is about the BTL property equity that does make a difference.
Property wise I have been in a not dissimilar position to you (income wise very different). When we added up the equity in all the properties and divided it in two the family home was roughly half and the other properties roughly half.

[ChangeAfoot]

MOS - THANK YOU so much for your post. It's incredibly helpful to get opinions from lawyers on here, because of course nobody is gunning for my business and therefore has no business in giving me an over-optimistic opinion. Not that I think that in general of lawyers, but I am now terrified that something is happening behind the scenes of which I'm unaware, and that may unwittingly jeopardise my position. Two lawyers (a partner at a top London firm plus the one I'm going to see next week) plus a family law barrister have all said exactly the same thing to me, but I'm getting very nervous that there's something he'll pull out of the bag that will take me by surprise. Of course, that is kind of the name of the game, isn't it? :(

[splintersinmebum]

Is he planning on moving out of the house?

[MOSagain]

sorry, meant, he is trying to wind YOU up