What happens if a court order to give a father access is ignored??

[logi]

My close relative has been involved with a access case with her young child for almost 3 years and this year there is a possibility that access may be given to the father.........the mother (my relation) will not under any circumstances be handing the child over ..................................................what would happen ??

The father at the age of 15 abused young girls over few months and was violent but has attended "courses" and "angermangement" and is now deemed "low risk"

my exP did good in supervised contact sessions.
however, his inconsistency in keeping up supervised contact outside teh contact centre etc led to a final order for ongoing supervised "by a mutually a greed adult" with instructions from judge to build up to unsupervised under the clause "and other contact as agreed" .

this did happen gradually but he messed up - so back to supervised. the supervised bit in final order is there til they 16 so i have that in hand.

nothing will happen overnight, he would have to prove himself in supervised and then the mother can monitor keep records if it is ordered she allows unsupervised.

but it may well be taken out of her hands -she has to abide by a court order unless has "reasonable excuse" - and that reasonable excuse wont be on the basis of something that happened ten years ago. it has to be current and now. if dad is saying eh wants contact and shows willingness to go thru supervised etc then this is likely to happen unless there are strong current concerns and evidence...

Well she wont be sticking around and hopefully enough years will pass for child to have a say/be older ..........sadly though this is devastating for family but a better option than the freak of a father getting anywhere near the child.
There is no chance of relying on the law to do what is right as they clearly wont as they have stated he is low risk and deserves a chance ..............low risk should be no risk the law is a joke.

Relative realises the possibilty of prison but will take that risk for her child.

And while she's in prison what happens to the child?

Family and her husband (childs daddy)...although not good definately better than letting child go with man who has did the things he did to 3 little girls...disgusting revolting freak ...i have read the kids statements ....no mumwould willingly hand their child over had they read it :(

This is not my relative being stubborn just have no option she is desperate as are we.

The father coudl apply for residency though - big risk to take...

Titchy - yes i know but if that happened would have to rethink what then......also cant see that as he hasnt seen child for 3 years .

I meant if the mother was taken to prison the father could apply for residency - bit late to think about it then! Not being unsympathetic - but I think it's a bit unrealistic for her to just say 'Oh I'll go to prison then' in the hope that'll sort things out. It won't and she needs to work WITH the law, not against it.

Trust me she is not just casually thinking "I will go prison then" ....this decision hasnt been taken lightly .............if only working with the law was an option ...the law isnt on her side....mind you there are many incidents these days where the law doesnt seem to stand for much.

I'm sorry but the way she seems to be approaching this could make matters much worse. If the courts are of the view that she is being unreasonable and will not co-operate with any contact order they may transfer residence to the father. I am not saying that will definitely happen but it could happen.

As others have said, whilst supervised contact usually leads to unsupervised contact it doesn't always happen.

She really does need to be careful. You all have my sympathies, you are in a horrible position. Rather than looking stubborn you would be better off trying to work the system to always keep the little girl safe. As titchy has pointed out she really can't risk being sent to prison, it will be playing into the fathers hands. If he gets residency while she's in prison she'll struggle to get her back.
Keep calm and keep perspective, the court will only allow unsupervised if they are satisfied the child will be safe. Also if he hasn't seen her for 3 years anyway unsupervised would be a way off. Have you had the cafcass reports?

The problem you have is that it is not for the mother to decide these things. Consistent refusal to allow contact can also mean that the child will be taken into foster care, the father aallowed to build-up contact with a view to residency and the mother only ever allowed supervised contact due to flight risk.

I know a dad that has residency in these circumstances. Your relative needs to understand the potential seriousness of her actions. She needs to comply with the court orders and allow him to burn his own bridges if need be. Supervised contact is her best way forward, chances are he'll not commit to it or not show up in the first place. I realise it must be awful for your relative, but thwarting contact can become very serious.

It is easy for people to see it from a legal/practical point of view but would anyone hand their young child over in these circumstances?? .....he will turn up.. he wants to get at my relative he openly gloats about this and the law is too soft on paedophiles. Cannot take the risk that he MAY mess up and let him get to this child....

If the courts would possibibly put child in foster care or give residency to a paedophile dont think we will trust the law or hope he messes up ....

This child is a very close family member there will be NO chance this scum is going near the child ..social services...courts..cafcass make too many wrong choices ...they wont with this child.

Prison...?? ...imagine the lifelong sentence you would feel in your head if you handed a child to this man and something happened ....worse than any prison sentnce in my mind.

I think what we're all trying to say is that it will make it worse for the child if the mother gets on the wrong side of the court. Believe me they can be brutal and if you don't play the game you end up on the wrong side of them. The father WILL show his true colours and you have to allow him to. If she doesn't go along with it he won't get chance to show himself for what he is. My ex did has done everything to make my life difficult but the contact supervisor has pretty much said he doesn't have a clue what to do with my son and is controlling and manipulative with him. Everytime my son does/says something he doesn't like he blames it on me (even tho I am not there). Blame is not the way to go. To hide his true self would take an Oscar winning performance. Have you thought of NYAS, try giving them a call. The nspcc are really helpful to

You ate storing trouble for yourselves already.

As someone said upthread, just because a mother doesn't want contact doesn't mean that she is in the right.

Sometimes people are so bitter about their ex that they lose sight of what matters, and for most children that is a healthy relationship with both parents.

In your relative's case, OP, I suspect that the court will, before going any further, order a fact finding hearing. At that hearing, your relative can put forward each and every allegation, set out in a prescribed format (google Scott Schedule), and each party gives evidence about that allegation.

The judge will then make a finding of each individual allegation and if he or she finds that there is sufficient evidence to uphold those allegations, will make a finding of fact judgement and that means that within the later contact application, everyone involved knows what is found to be the truth (eg that he battered the door down whilst she was holding the child, hit her, whatever it may be), and he can't deny that within those contact proceedings. Equally if the court finds that the mothers version is untrue, she can't raise it in those proceedings.

There is a risk of a change of residence if the mother doesn't comply with an order after all investigations have found that the father is not a danger to the child.

hi santa ...who is NYAS .....relative has been dealing with cafcass and sees a counsellor to do with this case and counsellor says dont give in and dont allow any sort of contact put she will be pushed to....solicitor says father shouldnt be allowed contact but has told her its going the way he will get it ....cafcass say because he was like that at 15 and he had bad childhood he deserves chance ......i do understand that when your not emotionally attached you see things from a different perspective but he seems to be pitied. Yes he had a bad life...but he was responsible for what he did to the girls he deserves nothing in my opinion with regards to contact.

ILoveTIFFANY trouble began the day she met him ......this has been going for 3 years and he has managed to convince people he deserves a chance we have little choice left.

We are desperate ..not stubborn..we do understand the risks both ways......we feel cornered.

We feel our lives are on hold....we are worried sick and cant plan ahead......putting him on a couple of courses wont cure him of what he is ...the system is a joke.

Logi don't think for a minute that I think you're wrong. I'm in a similar position myself. I know exactly how you're feeling. The law sometimes feels like it doesn't make sense. I have watched my son suffer and see the distress he goes through yet the court give his father so many chances. My son just doesn't understand why no one will listen to him, he doesn't speak to his father in contact sessions. What on earth is my son getting out of this???? I totally see that children should have healthy relationships with both parents but the court system seems to be ignorant of the healthy bit. I would hate for you that the court system just had your relative down as a hostile mother because they are very quick to judge.
NYAS is the national youth advocacy service, I'm not fully up on them but I'm sure someone on here will be. They are a charity who can step in as guardians for children. They are like cafcassi believe but I think you maybe get them in for a second opinion if you think cafcass have not done their job properly. Happy for someone to clarify nyas better than I have.
I really feel for you x

I have a case on at the moment where NYAS are acting as guardian at litem (ie for the child) in a matter where the mother refuses to allow contact, and has complained about two previous cafcass officers (because they don't agree with her reasons for objecting to contact). Now she's complaining about NYAS because they are supporting contact as well, and none of her allegations were upheld in the fact finding hearing.

The case has now gone to the High Court where I suspect there will be a change of residence order.

Hi, I don't know anything about the legal side, but I just wanted to say, rather than focusing on his past crimes when he was a minor, can you gather evidence of his current life?

Drug taking? Associating with criminals etc. Could you fund a private investigator? Something along those lines, to show that he is not a reformed character.

A friend's son is having problems getting access to his DD, his exp has accused him of taking drugs and he has/had to go for drug tests to show he was not. Has this been explored in your situation?

Santa how sad for your son ..when will they get it that not all fathers deserve chance after chance.I too agree in healthy relationships but it seems that they do think anything is better than nothing,which isnt right.

Relative is far from hostile she is petrified of the thought of prison and i am very concerned for her ......she is more terrified of the thought of contact being allowed...i am not sure about looking elsewhere for help becasue what more proof do you need than abuse of young children involving planned attacks ..threats .....anyone who can read what ive read then say this man is "low risk" is off their head.

To be honest ive never heard many good comments about cafcass.

Why do you think anything better than nothing is not right? The courts do not make decisions without evidence. Constantly psychologists and psychiatrists are giving expert witness to family courts that safe contact is in the best interest of children, even if a parent's behaviour leaves much to be desired by most people's standards. Children who are insecure about their parentage and identity grow up with long term emotional and behavioural problems. Any risk of harm is weighed against the strengths (including measures that might be put in place) of maintaining relationships with natural parents. Only in exceptional cases of serious harm are the risks of harm from a parent's behaviour likely to outweigh the harm of not knowing and seeing a parent.

If after only hearing one side, a counsellor is encouraging your relative not to allow contact they are perhaps too near the trees to see the wood and are not being very professional. At the end of the day they aren't subject to stipulations, court orders or sanctions. Persistent unreasonable hostility to safe contact can make someone appear to have a very rigid personality and it maybe concluded they are unable to put the interests of a child first. In this case a change of residence isn't beyond the realms of possibility. On the other hand if someone is reasonable and cooperates with safe contact in a contact centre their concerns about unsupervised contact are more likely to be taken seriously.

Why do i think "anything better than nothing is not right" ..seriously???

Because i think having a paedophile in a childs life is more likely to cause problems than an absent father thats why.

I have seen a few children grow up without one parent and they knew the truth when they were older and have not had emotional problems as adults they see the right decision was made by the parent who raised them.

Or perhaps the counsellor believes like me paedophiles dont deserve any chances no matter how "reasonable" they can "act" in front of the right people ,after all he managed to put on a good enough act when planning to be left alone and abusing the children he did over several months of convincing people to leave him alone with these kids........

OP, you/your relative really should take on board the excellent advice given by Mumblechum and STIDW, both very experienced family lawyers.

I have also had a case where the mother was obstructing contact and the father ended up with residence of the child.

Which is worse, the father having some contact or the father having residence? I would have thought that him having residence is a far worse outcome than him having contact. If your relative takes the same approach as you are doing here it will significantly increase the risk that he may get residence.