I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT JUST HAPPENED. Any lawyers got advice?

[MayMom]

I just tried to get the train (South West Trains, I think) to Bath and was told that trains were so busy with rugby supporters, that I would have to fold up my pushchair, carry my two year old and my bag (I am 8 months pregnant). I told the ticket man that I didn't think I'd manage that, to which he replied "Well I can't sell you a ticket then" - very brusque, rude and unhelpful - he shut the till drawer, got up and walked away!

Anyone know what my rights are? Anyone know what South west trains policies are regarding this kind of discrimination? - I know it is not the same exactly, but what if I had been in a wheelchair? Would they have found the room then? I have had this issue before on rugby days and have not been able to fit on a train - even with a folded up pushchair. Walked home (crying - it's the hormones!) feeling like a second-class citizen that South West trains dismissed as less important than rugby supporters.

Any thoughts?
Vikki

threefeethighandrising rubbish

OP - I think the new Equality Act 2010 may be able to help you

Am just reading through this www.equalities.gov.uk/pdf/GEO_EqualityLaw_Business_acc2.pdf to see

However, I think the difficulty is that the ticket selling man might be able to point towards the buggy as being the problem (and not you being pregnant) and so would be comparable to not selling a person with a bike (or other equipment) who wanted to travel.

The buggy isn't the problem it's that an 8 month pregnant woman cannot carry it and a toddler and one bag. So I think there is protection under the EA. But it's civil law so you'd have to sue and pay for the privilage.

I think you might have cause for complaint

The example given by the Equality and Human Rights Commission as indirect sex discrimination in their advice and guidance for the Equality Act 2010 as applied to service providers is very similar:

"A local authority consults with people living in the area on its proposed
plans for work. It announces renovation work to be carried out on a block
of flats in which the only ramped entrances will be closed at the same time.
As women are more likely to be the carers of young children, a woman
points out that this plan will make it more difficult for women using a
pushchair, including herself, to get in and out of the block. Although the
work has not yet started, this will be indirect sex discrimination unless the
council can justify its one-off decision."

See page 71 here: www.equalityhumanrights.com/uploaded_files/EqualityAct/servicescode.pdf

So SW Trains would have to justify their decision to not allow a pregnant woman unable to fold up her pushchair without help to purchase a ticket. Without help is key because, as someone has suggested (1947 was the last time we saw any compassion in this country and even then it was only porters who did this apparently? ) ), with help, you could have boarded and been given priority seating.

The fact that you were unable to comply with his demand (that you fold up the pushchair - presumably within his sight - your response being that you don't think you could manage that rather than an outright no you won't) because you are 8 months pregnant could also be direct sex discrimination.

Did you get any further identifying details of the man in question? You might just have to describe him and give exact times and where so SW Trains can identify him through shifts and who was working where at the time.

I would write a letter complaining to SW Trains pointing out their obligations under the Equality Act and asking them to investigate your complaint and respond to you with the results of that investigation. If you are unsatisfied with the response you have 6 months from the time of the incident to lodge a county court claim (interesting to note burden of proof is balance of probabilities so court only has to agree that even if it is only 51% probable that the ticket office denied you a ticket on either direct or indirect sex discrimination grounds then you have won).

Also SW Trains have a Passenger Charter and here they proudly pronounce:

Expectant mothers
We offer expectant mothers, who are holders of a Monthly or longer Season Ticket, a complimentary upgrade to First Class travel when no Standard seat is available. Conditions apply, see here for details about our Mums to Be scheme.

Travelling with young children
Many of our trains have been designed with areas of flexible space, making it easier to travel with pushchairs. All of our trains with toilets have at least one facility that offers a baby-change table and space for a pushchair. If you need help lifting your pushchair onto the platform or onto a train, our staff will help you, providing that they are physically fit to be able to do so and that you remove your child from the pushchair. Our staff are trained to assist in line with the principle: 'parents take the baby, we'll take the pram'.

www.southwesttrains.co.uk/passengerscharter.aspx#65661

Oh dear. Their principles don't seem to be much in practice really do they?

Crikey! What a can of worms have been opened - thanks everyone who has contributed.

Just to conclude, of course it is not unreasonable to be asked to fold a pushchair on a particularly busy service and for the record I didn't refuse (and I wasn't being militant!!!! Ha!). I simply said I didn't know if I could manage it...there was no opportunity for any kind of suggestions from the train man in question, he just walked away!

Having calmed down and thought about it, I think it is just an example of an ignorant and rude idiot who has lost the way with his "customer service". I will complain though, because he clearly needs further training in dealing with members of the public and sadly, I will certainly think twice about using the trains in future, obviously they don't cater for pushchair users when there are rugby fans who are more cost effective - cynical me. Oh, and in defence of South West trains......my mistake, it was First (not so) Great Western.

Drive.

If you have the energy MayMom (I wouldn't have at 8 months and that was without a toddler in tow!) do write a letter to FGW Trains though. The law is an incredibly blunt (and tiresome and procedural and costly) instrument whereas as a well-worded letter and a hint about going to the papers is probably much more effective. At the very least the ignorant and rude idiot might get some training and you might get a First Class season ticket so you can travel in comfort with a guaranteed seat with a new baby and toddler in tow. I don't say that to encourage you to get some money out of them but if it is a more frequent problem with their service as you suggest and you often use it, well let them demonstrate their good customer service to you.

Thank you TheyKnowEsperanto - you are a veritable mine of policy information! I shall certainly use the lingo in my complaints. Very much appreciated!

The bit TheyKnowEsperanto links to about SW trains (I know it's FGW but I travel with SW) carrying buggy and mum baby is a load of old rubbish ime. They rarely help even when asked and cite health & safety as the reason. That said one lovely man at my local station always helps.

Katie I bet it is - but they've put it in writing...as part of their passenger charter. Sadly, if it had been SW Trains I would have recommended printing off their passenger charter and keeping it in my handbag for when I travel (or getting one from the station) to refer their staff to.

MayMom I checked out FW Trains Passenger Charter and they are resolutely silent on helping with pushchairs apart from saying if there is a bus rail replacement service pushchairs aren't allowed on!

web form for complaints for FGW is here: www.trainrage.com/home/how-to-complain/

or address: First Great Western Customer Services Team, FREEPOST SWB40576, Plymouth, PL4 6ZZ