Cherie warns on civil liberties

[Caligula]

here

Blimey. Bet the atmosphere over supper in the Blair household can get a bit fraught...

Which civil liberties, Cam?

That Brazilian bloke didn't have the safety, did he.

I think it would be good if the govt pulled out our troops from Iraq like Spain did after the Madrid train bombings

I don't know. I do agree with the principle that you can't allow terrorists to dictate your foreign policy. I think if we pull out from Iraq, it should be because that's what we think we morally ought to do, not because we're scared that otherwise nutters will blow us up.

I agree with Caligula. I think we were wrong to go into Iraq in the first place but our decision on whether to stay in or pull out should be made on moral and then militarily strategic grounds (ie pulling out straight away could leave the country in an even worse state that it is now etc, but that's another argument.)

But pulling out cos some terrorists blow up the tube - what's that about. For one, no-one's said it's because of Iraq, no-one has been confirmed as claiming responsibility. Iraq wasn't the reason for 9/11 - what was the US government supposed to do to appease those terrorists? And in the case of Spain - the government didn't change its mind, the people changed the government a week or so later, electing one that had a stated policy of pulling out of Iraq. I'm sure the bombs did have something to do with it but how do you know they wouldn't have won anyway?

You cannot let terrorists dictate foreign policy and equally you cannot let them create a climate of suspicion and fear which renders any eroding of hard-fought civil liberties as normal, when in less troubled times we would man the barricades to defend them. It's a tricky balancing act, and I think Cherie was right to point it out.

As I don't think we should have gone in there in the first place I don't have a problem with that aspect.

As for leaving the country(Iraq) in a worse state, etc, I believe that the Iraqis will continue to attack each other and blow each other up in their opposing factions without any help whatsoever from us.

The Spanish situation was in the timing whereby they had a general election about a week after the bombing and the people voted for what they wanted.

For me its not about suspicion, fear or being scared etc but about controlling and getting rid of the terrorists.

I think Cherie, is clearly very intelligent and good at her job.

On the other hand I think she has the diplomatic skills of a bull in a china shop and as such she is fundamentally unsuited for a career in politics!

She just seems incapable of not putting her foot in it

Fine Cam, but if anyone can explain to me how, for example, ID cards would have made one blind bit of difference to what happened in London then I'd be delighted to hear it. The bombers were apparently normal blokes going about their everyday business - one even worked with kids FGS. The only thing that will defeat terrorism in the end is undrstanding and defeating the mindset that tells suicide bombers that it's OK to blow up people they've never even met. And that's a much bigger picture that involves politicians and communitiers, not just security services.

Of course the Spanish bombs were timed to influence the election, and it succeeded - but perhaps the Spanish people would have elected a troops out government anyway.

Soapbox, Cherie doesn't have a career in politics. Her husband does. She was speaking a s a lawyer. I'm willing to admit that sometimes she does stray across the fence into politics but this time isn't one of them.

I sincerely wish the solutions could be found through understanding, etc wordsmith, but I believe that there will always be violent anarchists in the world.

I think soapbox was being a tad sarcastic wordsmith

I'm not sure. I think maybe her occasional straying into hot political issue is a long term reminder that she's there and that she's got leftie credentials. Whether that's because she wants a political career in future, or whether it's to give Tone the lefty labour credentials that he otherwise lacks, is open to debate.

Oh Cherie is about as lefty as me

Yes but in the current new labour party, Roy Hattersly, who 20 years ago was way to the right, is now on the left!

I saw Roy Hattersley in the street once in Brighton when it was the party conference - he is about 4 foot high (and the same round)

Yes - they're always fatter and shorter in RL than on TV!

Cam, real and lasting solutions can only be found through understanding. And yes there will always be violent nutters who blow people up. But eventually they may become fewer and fewer. here's hoping. I suppose I am an idealist, and I fully understand your cynicism (some would call it realism) about the world...

I just don't think it's the violent nutters who should dictate how we live, that's all.

Think you may be right Caligula, I don't think Cherie's comments do any harm at all to Tony in the eyes of 'old' labour, just the Daily Mail.

Wordsmith - I was responding to the notion that Cherie would make a better PM than Tony!

Oh right... these threads move fast at times don't they? I can't keep up....

I agree. She's much too 'opinionated' as my motnher would say (I could never understand as a child why having opinions was a problem and whay being opinionated was a bad thing.)

Mmmmm, not sure I'd say being too opinionated is the problem - its her delivery thats the problem. Not her views but the way she says things! Too hard to articulate at this time of night

I don't intend to defend Cherie, I'm not a particular fan of hers tbh, I think she's a bit of a freeloader. And you know what I think about the nauseating simpering bits. But, I do admire her straightforwardness and the fact she does sometimes disagree publicly with her husband.

You're right, it's too late. I really MUST go to bed.

I do admire her. Don't envy her though. It's a pity that a woman who has achieved so much is so villified for speaking her sound and logical mind.