Digital Economy Bill

[WebDude]

A group is trying to stop the "on a nod" passage of the Digital Economy Bill into law in the dying days of this Government.

If you feel that a Bill should receive proper scrutiny, please Phone your MP TODAY.

The debate is due to start this afternoon - there's to be a 'live blog' on the ITPro website.

Here are a few links to check:

BBC news

NewsNow links to many web articles online today and in last 2 weeks.

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Obviously one should get a balanced view but with the example of how laws can be wrongly used (eg anti-terrorism legislation against Icelandic banks) then the possibility of blocking sites like Wikileaks becomes much easier. Last year Wikileaks was covering online censorship and listed sites blocked in Denmark. In Australia, the Wikileaks site was put on the blocked list and anyone linking to it could be fined $11,000 a day.

So much for "freedom of speech". Anyway, the LibDems have voiced concern about the Digital Economy Bill (I am not a member, nor do I vote for anyone, but saw that on a different website) but without other MPs also voting against the Bill until it can have proper examination, we may go down a route of censorship like some other countries.

From another website: "there are fears that the government will try to 'fast track it into law before the election' in a bid to score election money from music publishers and movie studios."

This Guardian Technology Blog seems critical.

The details in the Guardian by technology editor Charles Arthur

This is meddlesome's fault (mr backhander himself) , the smug little weasle, I hope they don't get this pushed through it's the biggest load of balls since the human rights act.

Like many, the MP for my area (now working under Peter Mandelson in BIS) is very much a "yes man".

So many MPs voted to allow closure of sub-post offices yet when they were in their constituency, were reported as being dead against the closures. Bunch of damned hypocrites, in my view.

If you check on They Work For You you can see a summary of how various MPs have voted. Check to see how your MP has voted on things - you might find it quite surprising (or not at all).

Let's hope those who sometimes rebel against the party line will vote against...

Lunchtime news (Radio 4) only covered the Election, of course... a full hour today.

Link Mangler wiped out the links above, sorry...

Guardian article is here :
www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/mar/22/digital-economy-bill

NewsNow link (that I put in)

www.newsnow.co.uk/h/Technology?searchheadlines=1&search=economy

One from NewsNow as this is now a Hot Topic

www.newsnow.co.uk/h/Hot+Topics/Digital+Economy+Bill

They Work For You www.theyworkforyou.com/ seems OK but useful to bookmark anyway so you can see whether your new MP lives up to any pre-election promises!

The trouble is there are very few Mp's in the house to debate this bill today, I have the parliament channel on and the house is pretty empty, all the big players are out on the road and meddlesome is probably rubbing his hands with glee.

I know my Mp is out canvessing locally which is wrong, while the house is still sitting Mp's should be there.

It makes fixed Parliamentary terms an even better idea, with perhaps a 3 week gap before the Election date when Parliament would go into recess to allow for MPs going out canvassing.

Any MP not attending Parliament up to the last day before recess should become ineligible and any votes for them would be binned. That'd keep them concentrated on staying in Parliament even if they were distracted.

Unfortunately even if there had been a petition on the Number 10 website about this, no one can sign it until 3rd June.

Closing date for any open petition is now set to 3rd June.

Wipes out any chance one of my petitions had for getting Government to look into funding rural broadband...

Glad the links were fixed!

Just hope they don't pass that flaming bill!

Digital Economy Bill 'live blog' now has 3 pages of comments - quotes start at a little after 16:00

Was just reading a blog entry and it seems that most of the responses confirming anxiety over this being rushed through are from Lib Dem or Conservative MPs. Some are written to confirm a degree of support for protection of copyright without going along with all the proposals from Mandelson.

I guess that with Peter Mandelson putting this bill forward, most in Labour seem unable to comment if they wanted to express any concerns...

Nice to see someone with enough backbone to complain from the Labour side...

18:18: Austin Mitchell, Labour MP for Great Grimsby, adds to the voices of saying it should be delayed to go through a proper debate.

Oh dear. Seems like less than 20 MPs are still there, which really begs the question how many are likely to vote for this Bill... and how democratic is any resulting bill...

This bill seems to do two main things, make it easier to take down web sites hosting copyright infringing material and penalise those who illegally download.

The first part doesn't really seem to be much of a problem right now. The issue these days isn't with sites that host copyrighted material but rather with those sites that link to such material. And crossing the line into penalising that sort of thing is incredibly dangerous.

The second part is a genuine problem but I'm not sure that there's any guaranteed technical solution to the issue.

I'm a big supporter of copyright and those that feel they have the right to steal peoples work sicken me.

But I don't support this bill. Hopefully it will die in one of the houses and some people might be educated along the way that stealing just isn't a nice thing to be doing.

I understand one of the arguments is that the media owners are not adapting fast enough to provide things people want in a format that is flexible enough to both make access easy, and protection of copyright easy too, at a price that encourages payment, rather than charges which seem to encourage avoidance.

I've heard time and again that the stats show those who have had a 'taster' of particular artists are among the heaviest buyers.

Meanwhile with all the illegal aspects of file sharing and duplication of DVDs / CDs, I have to question how any of the recording industry put their estimates together. While sales drop (possibly through copyright infringement, possibly just artist popularity or cost of items) the assumption is that it is down to piracy (or the major portion is), with only dubious proof (if any).

"I understand one of the arguments is that the media owners are not adapting fast enough to provide things people want in a format that is flexible enough to both make access easy, and protection of copyright easy too, at a price that encourages payment, rather than charges which seem to encourage avoidance.'

If someone doesn't sell you something how you want it sold to you, be that price or format, then people don't have the right to steal it. I think that Plumbers over charge, when one fixes my water tank I can't say "oh you're too expensive, I'm not paying you."

"While sales drop (possibly through copyright infringement, possibly just artist popularity or cost of items) the assumption is that it is down to piracy (or the major portion is), with only dubious proof (if any)."

Some of the drop is down to piracy, that's beyond doubt. When people can just download for free, and what's worse when they see nothing wrong in doing so, they won't then go and buy it.

However what the entertainment business do do that's terribly wrong is to presume that one pirate copy equals one lost sale. And that's how they produce those inflated figures of how much piracy "costs" the UK.

"they won't then go and buy it."

It depends what your talking about, if I download a movie because I want to see it before it's released on DVD (wouldn't go to the cinema if they paid me)then the copy is generally cr*p, if the movie is good I will buy it once it's out in the shops. So they made a sale which they wouldn't otherwise have had because I could wait for it to come on sky+.

They were arguing this same thing when tape recorders and VCR's came out tht the idustry was doomed, BS, people who know how can get round it and they will teach the ones who don't know how, it's the industry who should get with the times and realise that they can't keep inflated prices in a market where there is an alternative.

Digital is "worse" than analogue copies such as VHS. A digital copy is perfect and from that a person can give their friends further perfect copies. With tapes, VHS or audio, the copies were generally rubbish and there were limits as to how far from a "genuine" tape each copy could spread before it was unusable.

It's hard to compete in terms of price when the alternative is free through theft.

People can argue as much as they like that they're "just trying something out" but that just doesn't wash. To begin with how would anyone feel if their boss sacked them after a month and didn't pay them saying "well I was just trying you out, I would never have employed you anyway".

It's theft and I wish that people would just stop pretending otherwise.

You're not hurting big business, you're not sticking it to the man and you're not cutting a brave new path into the digital frontier.

You're stealing from normal people like me and hurting the people that these thieves so often claim to be "fans" of.

This bill still sucks though.

"People can argue as much as they like that they're "just trying something out" but that just doesn't wash."

Why not? To me it's the same as hearing something on the radio. Why would I buy without trying?

FYI most of my music collection was purchased after downloading free copies. A lot of artists are now releasing select tracks from their albums for free, which is a fantastic solution. Because you then have that option. And therefore don't need to pirate the songs to hear them. (Especially in the more underground music scene where the songs dont get played on the radio)

As for films, cinemas used to be the way to see films before buying. However cinemas are horrendous now, overpriced and usually not the most pleasant experience. I know I'd rather watch in the comfort of my own home and then buy once I know it is worth it. (And I always do, you should see our DVD collection!!)

In all honesty, piracy has meant I've bought more, so as opposed to them losing sales, they've gained them.

If they started releasing films on a website (to be paid for - though less than the cost of a DVD) where you could watch them without having to wait till after they'd stopped showing at cinemas, then I think far more people would go down that route.

With the radio the artist has given their permission for the song to be played and is rewarded for doing so.

With downloads one person has taken it upon themselves to deliver absolutely perfect copies to as many people as want it and who may in turn pass it on to many other people and there's no recompense for the artist.

If someone chooses to release something as a demo then great, they've got that choice. However you do not have the right to make that choice for them.

And what happens if something you download was OK, not brilliant but OK. You're glad you watched/listened/read it but would never do so again. Would you out of good conscience buy the product and pay the producer?

Even if you do by using File Sharing you are encouraging and facilitating a system where by many people don't ever give any recompensse to the creator.

And once again in general with regards to pricing, if something isn't as cheap as you would like then you do not have the right to steal it.

In all honesty cinema is expensive but you can get single tracks for 69p, new CDs for less than a tenner and often DVDs for a similar price I really don't think that that's bad value.

But that doesn't compete with free, which is why so many people steal especially when they just won't admit that it is wrong.

Thinking about it, what gets me most about the DEB is the sheer hypocrisy of it. It's there to help the artists and the creative industries? Is it fuck!

Just look at clause 43. If someone finds your artwork and can't won't find you to get permission then they pay a fee to, guess who, the government, then they can use it how they wish.

The music/film industry is only getting the clauses they want so they will give their funding. Anyone who can't afford the funding can get screwed. If the government weren't getting funding from the film/music industry would they care?

Back to pirating though. Before pirating I'd borrow a friend's tape/cd. Didn't get the artists permission. And no, if I didn't like it why would I buy it. If I did then I would. Will sharing CD's be banned too?

Noone said anyone has a right to steal anything, but I'm not arguing that. I'm pointing out that I spend more on CD's/DVD's/gigs/merchandise because of pirating. As opposed to the idea that every pirated item = lost sales.

I know I'm not the only one.

Yes, stealing is wrong, but there are better ways to deal with it than cutting off internet access.

And like I said earlier, it's not about stealing, otherwise clause 43 wouldn't exist. Neither would clause 46.

And as for the right to a fair trial, that's out too if the DEB goes through. The whole thing is a farce, dressed up to look like it holds some kind of moral high ground.

I'll deal with the bill in a bit.....

Copying "a" CD isn't that much of a problem.

However offering to make a perfect copy of any CD that you own for anyone that asks for it and at the same time encouraging and enabling them to do exactly the same is clearly a lot more harmful. Which is what file sharing is.

You haven't answered what you do if you just enjoyed the movie/game/film/book/song but will never want to go back and enjoy it again.

Do you buy it?

Or do you just walk away from them having taken their work and given them nothing for it?

And to be honest the "try before you buy" argument is really just saying "oh yes I shoplift from small store owners, but if I like the product I'll go back and pay them, if I don't, well, ermmm, they should have offered it to me for less then!"

Any creator can offer you their produce on a "try before you buy basis" and there are so many ways that we can do that now.

However sometimes we don't.

That does not give you the right to make that decision for me, to take my work and then to decide that you're not going to enjoy it in the future and so won't buy it.

As to the bill.....

Well my feelings on theft through piracy should be obvious.

However I just don't support this bill.

I don't believe that there are any technical solutions for this problem. The answer is somehow to educate people that illegal file sharing is theft.

If an illegal filesharer is caught and proved then I'm all for throwing the book at them, however this is a far from easy task and the bill doesn't even attempt to tackle it.

The only good idea is the letter writing, I'm pretty hopeful when it comes to human nature and hope that most people just don't understand what they're doing when they download illegal files.

Despite it being pretty easy most people wouldn't steal from a small corner shop.

Why is stealing from people like me any different?

I do agree with you (and yes, I buy anything I enjoy)

However I think this bill is an arse about tits way of dealing with it.

Well that was the most useless debate ever, seeing as no one could be arsed to turn up to it, only to vote the way they were told (what good little puppies they are)

This democracy is a farce.

Actually there were some rebels. I was a teller for the noes and saw the rebels coming through the lobbies.

There were and I love them for it, as soon as a list is released I will be sending thanks their way, along with thousands of others I assume.

Sickened by how many voted despite not bothering to hear the arguments against. What the hell are they employed for, because I've just seen no evidence of them doing their jobs!!

I'm absolutely fuming, it makes a mockery of democracy. How many people opposed this bill, and how many bothered to even debate it. It's telling that the majority of the MP's in the actual debate were against it.

Any MP's who avoided the debate but joined the vote should be deeply ashamed of themselves.

A done deal, the government would never have pushed for this in the wash up if they thought it would be defeated.

Shame on those who voted for it. I applaude the rebels for having the brains to see exactly how bad for the people of this country this bill really is ( and not just the 'downloading' piracy issue) and the backbone to vote against the deal that was done.