Fathers for justice debate

[Louise1970]

Last week i met up with my post antenatal group, and the above subject was brought up. I know that the John Gaunt show on 94.9 between 9-12am week days also featured this subject a few weeks ago. So i woundered what feedback i would receive from all you mums out there.

If you were splitting from your partner/husband and had children.

And

Mum worked full time such as dad
Dad bought in more money though

Mum 99% took time off work to take them go to dentist, hospital, docs.

Mum 99% was up all night caring for the children that would not sleep.

Mum 90% played with them, read, did there homework with them, diciplined them, and kept them into a routine.

Mumm 90% maaintained the house and garden. Ironing, washing, payig bills, cleaning, cooking, Gardening etc.

Dad 99% of the time never stuck to any routine so therefore (mum would have to start all over again with the routine). Also most of the time doesn't look out for there health & safety.

When the dad has his two days off goes and plays golf or football or is down the pub.
The mum has her two days off and she is running around like a mad woman doing the things the mans not doing.

My conclusion that i gave to my antenatal group was. If Dad could put his hand on his hart and say the above was not true and especially caring for them and there safety. Then you could trust and welcome your ex-partner.

But i think that most of the time the reason why mums are against dads having access. Was because they didn't do the above for there kids and they could not be trusted to take full care and resposibilities of there children.

Much more was discussed but can not remember it all. I don't really know what i would do if my partner and i split up, lets hope we never do.

What do you all think. I hope i don't get booted for speaking about this. If there are any dads that want to comment.

I think it's just a part of a hugely complicated picture. The circumstances we're born into do still largely influence the paths we take in later life.

Interesting about the class thing, because SA of course rationally getting a cleaner shouldn't be a class issue, it should be a prioritisation issue. But it generally isn't - class does come into it, many working class people would see it as a criminal waste of money and sheer laziness to employ someone to clean their houses. OTOH, they don't consider it a waste of money to spend £20 on a new top which will look exactly the same as the top one bought in Oxfam for £1.50, as soon as it's gone through the washing machine once. My sister is constantly horrified by the thought of me buying clothes in second hand shops, and I have an aunt who is always sending me clothes for the kids in order to pre-empt my otherwise reckless second hand clothes buying! They have this peculiar snobbery about it. Money prioritisation is very much influenced by class and culture, I think.

Who was it that said that you shouldn't begrudge mothers on sink estates need buying a pack of ciggies as it's their one luxury in life? The broadsheets were havinng fits but I can't remember the amount of times I heard that in my youth.

I mean lost count!

John Reid, the minister of health!!!!

Don't forget working class women are often strong people who keep the whole family and community going... in the area I grew up, men used to hand over their wage packets to their wives who would then give them back their beer money. And working class women have played a part in feminism too.

There was 'men's work' and 'women's work' where I grew up and many men wouldn't have been seen dead pushing a buggy, let alone changing a nappy, though.

There is a point about lack of power over your own life which tends to go with economic deprivation, and hits women hardest right across the world. And middle class feminists forgetting that working class women face very different issues.

Don't know exactly what point I'm trying to make here really ... don't assume working class women are victims but we should recognise that women living in deprivation are often doubly disadvantaged compared to men, maybe?

I agree with you Caligula, but I think it's more culture than class. The poor immigrants in the uk have very different domestic habits than the poor english born (including those immigrants who have been here for a few generations). And similarly in the usa, you see very different behavior in the different immigrant groups (ie asian, african blacks, west indian blacks, hispanics).
I also don't agree with you MT. I don't think being uneducated means that you are unable to communicate. I think that in the uk, it just may mean that you are more likely to come from a background that hasn't taught you the importance of communication or given you many good examples of why and how to do it. Like bugsy2, I have several middle class friends who have let their husbands beat and cheat on them for years, but didn't have the self belief and confidence to say that's enough. And several working class friends who have stood up and said, I don't want it to happen this way. Until this year (he finishes college today) my dh hasn't had any education since the age of 12. However, once I had dragged him to a marriage consellor, he has been really good about verbally communicating his needs instead of just holing them up inside. He may not be as eloquent as me and my 3 degrees, but he gets his point across effectively (and I no longer insist on his wearing old clothes ). Perhaps there should be a requirement of family counselling for everyone insead of spending the money on ....speed bumps, endless leaflets on unrecyled paper about recycling, taxis for ken livingstone....Then again that's a whole other political discussion about how awful the government's financial incentives are that encourage the breakup of the family, having more children than you can handle, not working, etc. etc.

What a fun discussion.

I don't actually think 'behaviour' differs so drastically depending on your ethnic heritage. That's all a bit too Margaret Meady and tendentious for my liking I'm afraid. But I?m hardly a specialist in the area so can?t comment too much myself. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Bugsy2 you were making observations from your circle, I could describe women in exactly the same situations from my working class past and my middle class present. In my experience, the feminine malaise of low self-esteem isn?t class specific. Or even in these times gender specific.

IMO however, Mum's tend to get it in the neck for too many things. You can?t blame mums for a millennia of sexism, or expect them to be able to overcome it within a generation. Sexism won?t end because discrimination won?t end. We can legislate against it but we can?t wave a magic wand and make it disappear. Men and women are different. Instead of trying to iron out the differences perhaps we should be educating on the art of compromise. Haha, but that?s politics. Something F4J aren?t too interested in.

I?m not sure what point I?m trying to make here either. I really can?t separate class from culture here, aren?t they two sides of the same coin? There are so many other elements bound into it too. Too many for my feeble brain to wrestle with.

Just finished reading 'What does everyone think of F$J'. Thanks for that link. God i have neck and headache now. A terrible thing to read but i am affraid it is happening alot. I have a male friend who has a daughter which he gets to see every other weekend. The mum is a psycho. My friends mum and step-dad have just taken psycho woman to court for custody of there granddaughter and won. It was a long battle. The father didn't apply for custody as he has too many debts from the psycho woman to be able to put a decent roof over his daughters head. So it also happens the other way round too. I must admit i do not think it is a class issue. My partner also has more brains than me, but i am much more stronger than he is. But if he does not want to do something. Then he will not do it and i think that this is the problem today. Men will not do... And when they do they do not take the care. It was 90 degrees the other day and he put them in the car and left them with all the windows done up. They could have died. I am constantly on his case about his lack of thinking. Many others that i have met through having children say similiar. No way am i a week woman i just have an obstanant man. I see men walking about with papouses on or walking with buggies or playing in the park with there children. Why do some men find it so easy. I have been trying to train for 10 years and still am getting know where.

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