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Margaret Thatcher's in hospital,Is this the beginning of the end? How will you mark the day? Black arm band or party 7.

510 replies

Cowwomanmoo · 14/06/2009 00:40

After looking at the news about Mr T I found my self on wikiquote.

Classic:

In an interview with George Negus for the Australian TV program 60 minutes, the following exchange occurred:
Negus: Why do people stop us in the street almost and tell us that Margaret Thatcher isn't just inflexible, she's not just single-minded, on occasions she't plain pig-headed and won't be told by anybody?
Thatcher: Would you tell me who has stopped you in the street and said that?
Negus: Ordinary Britons...
Thatcher: Where?
Negus: In conversation, in pubs...
Thatcher (interrupting): I thought you'd just come from Belize
Negus: Oh this is not the first time we've been here.
Thatcher: Will you well me who, and where and when.
Negus: Ordinary Britons in restaurants and cabs
Thatcher: How many?
Negus: ...in cabs
Thatcher: How many?
Negus:I would say at least one in two
Thatcher:Why won't you tell me their names and who they are?

OP posts:
abraid · 17/06/2009 14:27

'Oh and she also broke the link between state pensions and earnings (never been restored).'

This would have happened anyway. We can barely afford the pensions we have at the moment. By the time we retire state pensions for all but the destitute will have gone.

I remember (just) what it was like before Mrs T. If you had a good new idea for a business and wanted to start it and employ people, forget it. The union barons would decide whether or not they were going to play. They were not elected by electorate but they had the final word.

If you had a company pension and you wanted to move job it was almost impossible to transfer the pension. So lots of people were stuck in jobs they hated for years and years.

talbot · 17/06/2009 14:30

Well that was my point abraid. Yet another example of a Thatcher policy that was inevitable.

Rhubarb · 17/06/2009 14:40

There are lots of different HAs. Pick Custy's brain, she knows all there is to know about HAs and how they operate.

abraid · 17/06/2009 14:45

Talbot, you right. A lot of these things would have happened no matter who was in power.

The criticism I have of Mrs T. is that she didn't do more to encourage those who lost jobs in mining/steel, etc, into other work. The legacy of generations of unemployment is not a good one. But I don't think we can compete with Polish coal, for example.

I think the nub of the matter is that Mrs T. herself was born into a very respectable, religious family with a big sense of duty and community. She didn't realise that lots of people aren't like that and need incentivising to behave in this civilised manner.

FioFio · 17/06/2009 14:45

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FioFio · 17/06/2009 14:46

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talbot · 17/06/2009 14:47

I agree with you abriad. I think criticism of the way she handled things is in many cases entirely justified.

abraid · 17/06/2009 14:50

I think perhaps her biggest problem was a lack of empathy: feeling what it would be like for a community if there were no more jobs, how that would affect generations afterwards.

In my book, Arthur Scargill has a lot to answer for. He turned people like my parents towards support for Mrs T because they hated him so much.

AitchTwoOh · 17/06/2009 15:22

"I think the nub of the matter is that Mrs T. herself was born into a very respectable, religious family with a big sense of duty and community. She didn't realise that lots of people aren't like that and need incentivising to behave in this civilised manner."

such an interesting way of looking at it. she was born lucky lucky lucky she married super-lucky lucky lucky and she didn't realise that not everyone is like that. it's always people who get opportunities who think that the reason they got them is because they are better/harder working/cleverer than everyone else. tell that to the children of the miners who saw their fathers, mothers and communities wrecked. you want duty and community, look to those families.

although i agree scargill was not a charming figure. i think someone mentioned the roleof the media, very true, but also technological advances meant more light cameras, more movement, and ugly/regional people seriously started to look and sound bad on tv, quite purposely.

smallwhitecat · 17/06/2009 15:57

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AitchTwoOh · 17/06/2009 16:11

being unnattractive, at least in part due to his being a gobshite. of course thatcher was too, hence saatchi etc and the makeover.

and lol at being the daughter of a shopkeeper being poor... hardly, when you consider the poverty that existed when she was a girl.

daftpunk · 17/06/2009 16:12

i think Arthur & Maggie had a lot in common...neither of them would give an inch..

AitchTwoOh · 17/06/2009 16:13

me too, and what damage they did. (and what terrible retribution she sought).

totalmisfit · 17/06/2009 16:20

she began the culture of blind greed and stupidity; the pursuit of profit above all, the 'society is dead' crass individualism and selfishness that New Labour continue to perpetuate and the conservatives will take over after the next election.

In the words of the Simpsons 'it makes no difference which one of us you vote for; either way your planet is doomed'.

abraid · 17/06/2009 17:03

'distinction between the deserving and the undeserving poor '

One which needs restating today.

Lucia39 · 17/06/2009 18:42

I trust that everyone won't be annoyed by the length of this post.

For those who have no memory of Britain pre 1979 it's hard to understand the strong "us" and "them" feelings that existed between workers and management during the 1970s. It also needs to remembered that, unlike today, Britain still had a substantial [if not very profitable] heavy industrial complex. The opening of the film "The Full Monty" shows what Sheffield used to be like. The Meadowhall site was once home to a huge steel foundry, now it's a shopping mall. In the NE the change began even earlier with the Metro Centre opening in Gateshead in 1983. Living in the NE during the late 1970s and early 1980s I also remember the steel town of Consett just before it "died". Now its only claim to fame is that it is the home of Phileas Fogg crisps! The same went for Wallsend and Sunderland where orders dropped as South Korea took over as one of the main ship-building and steel producing countries.

In 1979 Thatcher [rather like Blair in 1997] seemed like a ray of hope to some. She appealed in many ways, firstly she was a novelty, being the first female leader of a major political party, secondly she spoke in language people could understand. She used her "just a housewife" image to talk about balancing the books, budgets, and not spending more than you earn, all very popular at a time when Britain was regularly going to the IMF for bail-outs. However, it was her attitude toward the Unions that really caught the mood of sections of the public who were fed up with years of chaos caused [so they were told] by greedy, power-hungry workers. The press supported her with Murdoch sharing her views on Unions [in 1986 he moved everything to Wapping and thousands of print workers lost their jobs].

A combination of luck [the Falklands] and new technology [computers were just starting to be used in the early 1980s] and her faith in "letting the City police itself" [aided by Reagan's policies in the US] saw her re-election in 1983 and the subsequent rise in jobs in the SE. Canny teenagers found they could work the money markets and earn hitherto undreamed of salaries.

The divide between the impoverished North and the wealthy South East began to become apparent in the mid 1980s and there were plenty who questioned the morality of her policies. However, just when she was being reviled once again for her callous attitudes the Unions, unwittingly, came to her rescue. In 1984 Scargill gave her the opportunity to smash, once and for all, the most powerful Union in this country and at the same time foster the belief in "the enemy within". Her consistent refusal to support sanctions against the apartheid regime in South Africa allowed South African coal to be imported and keep the power stations running throughout 1984-85. Scargill was a fool but he was right about one thing, the closure of so-called "less economic" mines opened the way to the privatisation of Britain's coal and power industries.

In my opinion if Thatcher had not had the almost unconditional support of the Press and a great deal of luck I don't think some people would remember her today as such a "great" leader.

margotfonteyn · 17/06/2009 19:12

Well said, Lucia39. Just about sums it up really.

ABetaDad · 17/06/2009 19:13

Lucia39 - enjoyed reading your post. It was interesting, accurate and fair.

My FIL was born and lived in Consett, his Dad worked in the steel mill behind the two up - two down house that DW's grandma lived in until she died. Know the place well.

The question is, without profitability and without an ever increasing flow of tax subsidy could that steel mill and the local coal mines have survived? Could it ever stand on its own two feet? Would it not have died in the end anyway - with or without Thatcher?

The working conditions in that steel mill were also dire. There is a Youtube video of it. Was it a bad thing to shut it down?

The loss of jobs was personally devastating for many men and their families. The tradgedy is that new industry did not come in to repace it and bring new jobs. Still do not understand why that did not happen.

I was born in the South Yorkshire mining area and I remember a young miner coming to do 'cash in hand' work loading straw on trucks in 1984 on my Dad's farm. He explained how he had baby, a young wife and no food on the table due to the strike and how he feared for his life if he broke the strike. He was damn hard worker and he had no love for Scargill - but then he had no other work opportnity than the mines.

To be honest, I feel that if Thatcher had not smashed the miners then economics would have done for them in the end. Truth is that most (not all) UK coal mines were simply too expensive to run and could never compete with imported coal from Australia and South Africa. Men working tiny seams of coal thousand of metres below ground in constantly flooding UK mines could never win against giant open cast mines in SA/Aus where coal in thick seams is ripped out of the ground by giant bucket wheel machines producing thousand of tonnes of coal a minute.

I just wonder if Thatcher got blamed for something that was inevitably going to happen anyway? She just did what had to be done.

Peachy · 17/06/2009 19:24

Lucia that was a good post, interesting.

We lived in a non Notrthern or Welsh industial area, I suspect most of that would have happened anyway. What stank though in my honest opinion was the attitude of people- including tory Governmeny Miniters- to those who lost their jobs. They weren't guilty of anything- in the bvast amjority hard workng peoplegetting on with it like most people do- but when they lost their jonbs they weren't ofered support (I mean verbal or emotional as well as financial), instead they were told to get on their bikes (is it ever that easy?) and you'd have thought they were lifetime scrounging deliberate claimants for all the empathy shown towards them.

Sometimes bad things happen and people lose jobs. When that's unpreventable it's how society treats the victims that is significant: my memories of the Tory government are entirely negative in that respect.

PacificDogwood · 17/06/2009 20:15

that this thread is still going.

I have found it a really interesting read as a lot of the things you all contributed to this, I had no idea about (being a bloody foreigner and all )..

To me, what made MT scary was her total selfbelief, no room for doubt, everything in black and white/right or wrong/you are either with me or against me.
I still find her scary when I now see old footage of her.

HerHonesty · 17/06/2009 21:06

good post lucia. clever lady.

also remember the luck she had with north sea oil tax revenues....

AitchTwoOh · 17/06/2009 21:10

good post, lucia, luck had a huge hand.
and yyy to the callousness shown to communities destroyed and single-minded mania she showed while doing it. she was a cult then and now. and yes, i said cult. but i was thinking the other...

PacificDogwood · 17/06/2009 21:26

@ Aitch

HerHonesty · 17/06/2009 21:29

sorry just read that "Mrs T. herself was born into a very respectable, religious family with a big sense of duty and community. She didn't realise that lots of people aren't like that and need incentivising to behave in this civilised manner"

did you really mean to a) be so very patronising and b) call thatcher "civilised"...

AitchTwoOh · 17/06/2009 21:36

i'm still laughing at the idea that being a shopkeeper's daughter meant she was poor. when kids in govan were running around with no shoes...