Madonna gets her way....Baby Mercy is hers.

[whooosh]

Feel so frustrated for all those going through the adoption process who don't have the cash "big guns" she has.

oh, and for thoes who are concerned about money changing hands in adoptions - you might be interetsed to knwo that some of the largest costs to British parenst are

£4-5, 000 charged by local authorites HERE to supply the relevant paperwork

££££ hundreds more charged by the Foreign and Comonweath office in LONDON for notorising docuemnts, often required several times during the adoption process

£££ hundreds charged by the Home Office HERE for issuing multiple short term visas

I knew Madaonna would get her way in the end - but I don't see it as a reason to celebrate.

She is a middle aged woman in a youth obsessed industry, doing whatever she can to appear younger, including having a couple of pre schoolers hanging off her hips.

And, yes, i really do think she's that vain and shallow.

Kristina you're still missing the point that the court of appeal let the adoption go ahead because of the money that she has given to Raising Malawi.

Her appeal was successful on the basis that her contribution to the Malawi orphanages should have been taken into account, rather than the strict residency requirement.

KristinaM I can see that this is a sensitive subject for you and I am not suprised. I have adopted in a way that is often criticised and/or misunderstood. My hackles are raised when people start flinging about accusations like 'well the family are just as bad because they didnt do anything to save that child' or 'if that was my neice, grandchild,cousin' I would have just marched in there and taken it'

The above in regard to Baby Peter case et al.

I have met international adopters and the vast majority have been incredibly caring and determined people who have adopted for the best reasons. They have put an enormous amount of thought and effort into bringing their children home.

BUT I cannot bring myself to believe this of Madonna.

And 'normal' people go through years and years of assesments and expense before they get their child home.

Madonna gets what she wants.
I firmly believe that she would not adopt an 'real' orphan. That would be far to risky. No background info on the family, no knowledge of inherited diseases and disorders, no way of knowing if close family have mental health disorders etc.

Madonna lives in a world where women can 'buy' twins. They can have them implanted when they want them and choose which sex they are. One of each to fit in with filming schedules.

Its all normal to her.

I think it sucks.

I am saddened to think of that bewildered little girl being shipped from country to country and cared for by staff (she doesnt have a good track record for retaining staff), gaining 3 new siblings who are probably still trying to deal with the break up of their parents.

Mercy is not going to be abused or suffer horrors. She will have a nice life and a good education. I am glad.

I still dont think the way rich, spoilt western superstars get whatever they want is right.

What do you know. Money can buy you love.

FAQ - if someone was to post

" i disagree with the decision of the Malawian court to waive the residency requirement in this case because of the prospective adopter's charitable work in the country"

then i would think that that poster had a perfectly reasonable point

likewise, if people don't like her music/image/sex life/diet/religion/lifestyle etc , that is a matter of their opinion.

but that doesn't make her, or most other international adopters, child traffikers who " turn up and buy children"

You might hold the opinion that the US adoption process is not very thorough. Or that the Malawian courts have made the wrong decision. That does not make them corrupt or Madonna a criminal.

Sorry if my post wasn't clear.

I feel that in adopting a child you are making an equal commitment to him/her as he/she is making to you.

The same does not apply to giving someone money to carry on living in the third world conditions they are in.

This asymmetry can lead to difficulties (emotional) for the recipient of the material largesse.

Those children would very much rather be adopted away from their circumstances than be kept there.

It is arrogance on our behalf to presume that we know better and that actually they are better off 'in their own culture'.

Sorry. Eloquence not my strong point.

I have said very little of the things that you accuse me of in your last post.

The only thing I hold my hands up to - and still maintain is true is that corruption is rife in Malawi and many other countries around the world.

Interestingly last years CPI table shows that the very few African countries are in the bottom 20 on the table and the UK and the USA are close to being pushed out the top 20 least corrupt. (well perceived to be corrupt - but it's based on all sorts of facts and figures).

Ib I dont think you can make the assertion that children would rather be adopted away from their circumstances.

Even children who are being sexually abused would rather stay with their family. They just want the abuse to stop.

Wouldnt the vast majority of children want to stay with those they know in a home they know but without the poverty etc?

I am sorry but I dont think I understand your posts.

I think its the equal commitment thing that is confusing me. I dont see a child as making a commitment to the adoptive parents. They dont have a great deal of choice in the matter. If they are old enough they can say they will not except the adoption. I doubt very much if little Mercy was able to articulate anything like this.

I really dont think adoption can be compared fairly with 'sponsership' anyway. Its entirely different.

how is the adopted child (Mercy in this case) making a commitment to Madonna???

Okay, not a commitment perhaps. Let's just say that the adopted child is as important to the adopted parent as the parent is to the child.

The same is not true in the 'charity' situation.

I don't agree that children would rather stay even in situations of abuse. What makes you think that?

Agree with Ib about taking a child out of the country, and that a child's welfare is more important than keeping them in a orphanage or putting restrictions on who can adopt them for the purposes that they keep their culture, as it doesn't matter to a young child who is institutionalized.

If I was an Appeal Court judge in Madonna's case, I would highlight that she already has adopted a child from Malawi, and on this basis alone, the residency rule could be waived. I would also highlight that the residency rule was in place so as children from Malawi would not be subjected to child trafficking, and it's clear that this isn't the case.

But I wouldn't suggest that her contribution financially was a factor as this just makes it appear grubby.

Right decision. Wrong reasons.

FAQ _ i never suggested that you had said ANY of these things. In fact i specifically said that i was NOT referring to your posts

By KristinaM on Sat 13-Jun-09 12:58:26
i didnt mean you FAQ

I was answering your post to me

By FAQinglovely on Sun 14-Jun-09 12:57:44
Kristina you're still missing the point that the court of appeal let the adoption go ahead because of the money that she has given to Raising Malawi.

and saying that i think this is a perfectly valid concern

dammit woman, i am AGREEING with you

IB

Children dont want to stay in situations of abuse. They want to stay with their families and for the abuse to end.

They want their mum to stop taking drugs. They want their dad to stop hitting their mum, they want their uncle to stop raping them.

I know this because of the work I have done with children and from my training as a foster carer. From reading about children in care and from studying. From talking to children who have lived with abuse and neglect.

Abused and neglected children do have fantasies about being rescued by kind people but LOTS of adopted children have fantasies about their birth parents coming and taking them back to live with them. Even children who have vivid memories of their lives before adoption.

Its something that adoptive parents have to deal with and handle very carefully.

good post chegirl

Interesting thread. On the whole, I agree with KristinaM. Whatever my personal opinion about Madonna's music or lifestyle, I generally am in favour of her adopting Mercy. Am a bit at Mercy's family (father in particular) who came out of the woodwork to voice his disapproval - I read somewhere he had never actually visited the child until all this furore started.

I personally know quite a few 'white' people who have adopted 'black African children (both officially and informally)and overall, I think their experiences have been extremely positive.

I agree with nearly everybody on this thread . No, I really do - everybody is a bit right. Adoption is always messy, never ideal, and IME a market even if money never changes hands. Even in the UK, where the system is far stricter and less commercialised than in the US, the rules are not consistent; you get more or less clout depending on your ethnic origin, your age, your sexual orientation etc. None of it feels good to me.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of intercountry adoption, cross-racial adoption etc, I don't quite see the point of demonising Madonna, though. I've never been a fan of hers, and I'm not saying the Malawian court made the right decision (I have no idea if they did or not) but she is surely not a cold-hearted bitch 'buying' a baby. She is a woman who wants to mother a child, who is probably not very reflective about how she uses her privileges, and who has at least shown a lot of loyalty to this particular child.

Well, she'll have a better life with Madonna I bet. Cant' get too worked up about this one. A child has been removed from an orphanage and placed with a wealthy westerner who wants more children.... That's good for Mercy isn't it?

I'd have been far happier if she could have been removed from her culture to be placed with a rich westerner who did not lead the itinerant lifestyle of Madonna but was able to give her a very settled life, in one home and with her adoptive parents there every day. Somehow with somebody like Madonna, I think one of those criteria is going to have to give.

It's the fact that this child which has already experienced separation, will either have to be cared for by staff for long periods or adopt an itinerant lifestyle herself: I just don't see how this can be good for a child with this kind of background.

It's all the points chegirls raised, really.

She would have been much better off being adopted by one of you Mumnsetters.

"Adoption is always messy, never ideal, and IME a market even if money never changes hands."

Our adoption wasn't at all messy. Ideal? It's pretty bloody marvelous, actually.

with respect, perfect, i dont think you know a lot about how it was for your Dd before you brought her home or was/is for her birth family

i'm glad that your adoption experince was marvellous for you, but perhaps not everyone will feel the same as you. If you cant accept this then you will struggle to support your DD through her feelings of grief and loss when she is old enough to express them

Hester said that "adoption is always messy" and I'm disagreeing with her because it's not always the case. I know that my DD was well looked after by a kind foster family and China gave me a beautiful, healthy, trusting baby girl.

And I am perfectly capable of supporting my DD emotionally as she grows up and hope that you can do the same for yours.

I'm really glad your experience has been so positive, Perfect. I'm simply making the point that adoption always involves separation and grief; the very least adopted children go through is the loss of one set of parents, and disruption at a stage of their lives when they should be making secure attachments.

perfect - "China" didn't give you your daughter, she was born to birth parenst. can't you understand that they might grieve for her?

and the best foster carers in the world are not a substitute for loving parenst

i find your choice of words very revealing.

your insistence that everything was wonderful for you doesn't seem to allow any space for others, including your DD, to feel differently

what will you say when she asks you how her birth mother feels? whether she misses her or worries about her? how will you help her deal with her grief while maintaining that everyhthing is " pretty bloody marvellous"?

none of this takes away from your joy in your lovely daughter. but life as a a-parent is more complicated than that I'm afraid......

I'm sorry if you feel i am getting at you. Its not my intention.