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I'm now crapping myself about MMR again - help!

53 replies

mrshippy · 04/06/2009 23:01

Have just been reading and contributing to the compulsory MMR jab. I gave it to my son at 2.5 years, after much thought. He was fine. My daughter is 20 months old and hasn't had it yet. I am particulary sensitive about her health because she had imperforate ans and has had three major operations, a tempory stoma and many unpleasant procedures performed on her. I think I have developed a bit of a phoboa about 'loosing her', and I am terrified by the idea of regressive autism.

How many of you out there are quite certain that your children have been damaged by MMR? Can anyone give me some clearer information so I can decide what to do?

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mrshippy · 05/06/2009 22:02

Thanks for all your posts, honest & reassuring for the most part. I am going to look into single jabs for her. She's currently 20 months old. Would poeople out there consider imperforate anus as a type of gut disorder? That's what's really putting me off. It's just so hard. I find the autism think so scarey because nobody knows what causes it and it just fuels my fear of 'losing her'. You're post Longtalljosie was very reassuring on that though.

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mrshippy · 05/06/2009 22:15

To put it another way, without all the anx. Can anyone point me in the direction of any sensible, non-biased info on MMR & Bowel stuff because my daughter's imperforate anus issue?

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Sidge · 05/06/2009 22:17

I am a nurse and a mum of a child with complex special needs.

I am generally pro-vaccination, but acknowledge that for a very small minority vaccination may not be appropriate. I would never ever slate a parent for choosing single vaccines but would urge them to choose the clinic that administers them carefully, and ensure they get thorough records of which vaccines were given when and where.

I do get cross with parents that choose not to vaccinate at all based on what they have read in the tabloids without proper and educated consideration, but I think they are fewer in number than 8 years ago.

nosleeptilbedtime · 05/06/2009 22:29

I see that this thread is also already being colanized by those who have a fanatical belief that only their own theories are correct and bulldoze over anyone who might disagree with their theories.
As far as I can see there is, as yet no solid peer reviewed evidence, (not anecdotal)that the MMR vaccine causes autism.
It is sad I think, as people come to mumsnet to find information and advice on real issues such as this, and what is happening here is not a balanced argument.

edam · 06/06/2009 00:08

at colanized

If you are going to patronise everyone who happens to disagree with you, it really helps to check your spelling. Errors do rather spoil the overall effect.

procida · 06/06/2009 04:55

Correct Adam

In answer to those here who continue to villainize Dr Wakefield, hear it in his own words.

www.ageofautism.com/2009/06/poisoning-young-minds.html

mrshippy.

You know your daughter and your children. Your family will be the ones who continue to look after your child, whatever the result.

Many things alter a person's perception as to how dangerous something is.

Hospital doctors for instance, tell you how dangerous measles is, because the only people they see are the really serious ones who land up in hospital, not the thousands of cases over the last few years, who had nuisance only infections, never saw a doctor, and got immunity.

The parents of the kids with nuisance only infections tell you that it's nothing to worry about, because 99.9% of healthy children who get measles, usually have no serious complications. Earache, is not a serious complication, though listening to some doctors you'd think it was life-threatening.

Everyone's perspective inevitably reflects their personal bias on whatever the topic of illness is.

The easiest way to put measles deaths in the past in perspective in terms of any country in general, historically, is to look at the death decline data, and match that with incidence data. While incidence may remain high, usually death data plummets. Why? Remember that in the centre of London in the 1920's, 50% of children of wealthy parents had rickets.

We don't hear about that so much now. The fact that rickets was a problem tells a lot. If you read the texts at the time, there was a huge move in the early decades of the 20th century to teach mothers about proper nutrition.

That need exists today, and I think what Jamie Oliver did in schools was spot on.

Your grandmothers might be able to tell you about the various codliver oil, maltexo or other nutritional campaigns of the day to get children's bones normal.

Children's nutrition never really got decent attention, until after the second world war. And now, I think it's going backwards again, very fast. The one thing that most affects how a child gets through infection is their long term nutritional patterns, and there is a huge amount on that in the medical literature, even if doctors don't talk about it much.

To assess your family's likelihood of serious illnesses, family trees are very useful, because they can indicate the sort of genetic predisposition that epigenetics can affect Ask your mothers and fathers and grandparents if you haven't got a proper family tree. If you have, study it carefully.

Anecdotal stories about the lady three doors down whose daughter died of measles at the age of two, aren't of any use, if unknown to the listener, the child had an immunodeficiency or some chronic condition that made any illness potentially lifethreatening. That might not apply to your child. Or it might, but you can only know that if you know all the details, not the general outline in local gossip or media hype.

Ask your doctor to loan you his copy of "Infectious Disease Epidemiology" Kenrad E Nelson (2005) if he has one. It's surprisingly easy for ordinary mums to understand. If you read the front of that, you will see the charts with the different diseases, mortalities and years. One of them Table 2-10 on page 42, shows how mortality from various diseases dropped amazingly between 1900 and 1935, before there were antibiotics. In that table, measles mortality per one hundred thousand 100,000 was 13.3 in 1900, but 3.1 in 1935. By 1970, that had dropped to 0.0. And that drop in deaths wasn't due to the use of any vaccine. Antibiotics made only a minor impact on secondary pneumonia after 1950, account for less than 1% of the total decline in death rate from 1880 to 1970.

You need to put each disease (not just measles) into the context of your life today.

A malnourished child in poverty in the slums of Glasgow, has a much higher chance of dying from measles than a well nourished child in Glasgow.

Yes, because your child has certain medical conditions, and has had operations, your child could be at greater risk of any infection, not just measles. Even the common cold might affect your child far more seriously than other. That also applies to vaccines as well.

You have to work out what the chances are of your child coming into contact with measles, (or any infection) and what her likelihood of getting measles seriously is(or X disease). The same with regard to any vaccination. Only you can make a judgement call as to what is best for your child. Only you will live with the result. No-one here can (or should) tell you what actual decision you should make.

Nahui · 06/06/2009 05:25

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Longtalljosie · 06/06/2009 08:52

If you do go for single jabs, can I urge you to have them for all three conditions though, and to ensure you get your boosters. It makes me so annoyed when I hear people saying "she doesn't need mumps, that's for boys" or "he doesn't need Rubella, that's for girls" - as though it doesn't matter if their child infects another child or a pregnant woman - and they go on to suffer complications. When it comes to public health, we're all in this together.

daftpunk · 06/06/2009 08:57

op;...mumsnet really isn't the place to be seeking advice on something as important as this, you'll get too many conflicting posts and will end up more confused...go and talk to your doctor.

HeadFairy · 06/06/2009 09:27

I can't really offer any expert advice or such, but I can totally understand your fear. I was petrified about giving ds his mmr, I waited until he was 18 months (not the 13 months they recommend where we are) and was reassured by the fact that he's really robust and healthy. In the end he didn't even react mildly, it was like he'd never had a vaccine, but then he was the same with all his earlier routine vaccines too. I'm very fortunate in that respect.

I can understand your fears with a dd who's had such a difficult start. I wish I could put you in touch with my dad's best friend who was a senior bowel consultant at GOSH (he's retired now) but I chatted to him and he really reassured me, not just because he was following NHS or NICE guidelines but because he'd genuinely read all the available published research before his grandchildren were given the mmr (they all were BTW).

nosleeptilbedtime · 06/06/2009 15:55

Edam, I apologise for my spelling, is that the only thing you can find to criticise about my post though?
What about the solid peer reviewed evidence, (not anecdotal)that the MMR vaccine causes autism?

No?

smallwhitecat · 06/06/2009 16:21

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Danae · 06/06/2009 16:34

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HeadFairy · 06/06/2009 17:51

I think the problem with the single jabs is that you have to leave a gap between each one before you have the next one, so that leaves you exposed for the diseases you haven't been vaccinated for during that time. I'm not sure how long the period you have to wait between individual vaccinations is though, and how realistic it might be that you're bombarded with exposure to mumps or whatever. I guess the theory is that if you're vaccinated against say rubella first, and a week later are exposed to measles, then you can still get measles, so the same risk associated with contracting measles exists.

ra29needsabettername · 06/06/2009 18:08

anecdotal evidence is still evidence. I think that it is right for that evidence to be taken seriously and researched thoroughly and commend the doctors at the Royal Free for listening to parents and trying to do that. As I have said before one of those doctors treated ds and was without doubt the best doctor I have ever met.
However, he was adamant that ds should have the mmr as the risks from measles far outweighed (in numbers and evidence) any risks from the mmr. Ds had very complicated health problems. I think the trouble has been that the government response to the mmr 'scandal' has been to say it is definately 110% safe. I think that it is unlikely that there have been enough trials to say this and would not be surprised if those mothers that have seen their children regress after the mmr are right (I'm so sorry by the way because this must have been truly devastating). I also think it is possible that it was not the mmr but coincidental- in short I don't know but neither explanation seems beyond the realms of possibility. However, I don't think the medical profession are out to dupe us into hurting our children and after speaking to one of the men himself who inadvertently started the scandal by his research I am convinced that the risk by not vaccinating is much much stronger than the risk caused by vaccinating.
The risk from a grommets operation is that of death but few people choose for their children not to have it and that risk is well evidenced and indesputable- it is strange that where the risk is less certain people seem to be more frightened.

ra29needsabettername · 06/06/2009 18:10

100%

mrshippy · 06/06/2009 21:24

Just wanted to thank all the posters on this thread. Has been very interesting readin and very reassuring over-all. Thanks x

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ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 07/06/2009 10:52

May i just add that mumps is not just for boys nor is it mild. I had it when pg and although i feel it was not a viable pg anyway, i miscarried 4 days after contracting it at 13 weeks pg. Looking at various bits of info on the net it seems very possible that mumps could have caused the mc.

sarah293 · 07/06/2009 13:19

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frogwatcher · 07/06/2009 14:10

Somebody said go and talk to a doctor, but I think you would be hard pressed to find one against MMR. Partially because they are independent from you and as in any job, will weigh up the risk and benefit. It has already been established that the benefit of MMR is high and the likelihood of complication low. The problem is that if it is your child that has the complication it would be devastating. Also, my understanding is that the doctors get a bonus type of financial reward for achieving the required percentage of people having the MMR, as they do the smear etc. I presume the government sets up a list of what they want achieved (e.g. 90% women aged x to have smear; 90% infants to have MMR; etc etc) and the GPs work to achieve it and get rewarded. I was told this by our practice nurse when the GPs said that I could get the MMR for my children in hospital due to the likelihood of allergic reaction and I mentioned to her how they seemed sooooooo keen to get me to do it, even though I had money for singles!!! Surely this makes them less independent? I am sure a GP will come along and correct me, but that is what I was told.

Snorter · 10/06/2009 17:00

Yes indeed there are targets linked to immunisation for GPs, and financial rewards.
BUT when the government reorganised GP pay and split it up into so much for this and so much for that, GPs were HORRIFIED that vaccination was going to be made into a target and their negotiators fought hard (unsuccessfully) to prevent this.

Why? Precisely because GPs felt that this target thing would UNDERMINE their position when it came to advising about vaccinations, and lead to people saying "Well you would say that, as you get paid for it."

Incidentally, children who have had a full set of single jabs and boosters can actually be included in the GP reports as having met the criteria for the target, so that doesn't really come into it.

icedgemsrock · 10/06/2009 20:25

Can anyone tell me approximately how much the single jabs cost?

CuppaTeaJanice · 10/06/2009 20:47

I think around £600?

DS is due for the MMR soon and I admit I was crapping myself about it too. I googled it and came across a very highbrow discussion on the New Scientist website (lots of long words & scientific terms, and arguing amongst professors of immunology!!). Three things stuck in my mind...

  1. A study in Japan found that the number of cases of autism actually increased when the health service stopped giving MMR and changed to the single vaccines. I forget the exact figures, but it seemed quite a significant rise.
  1. Another study found that the incidence of hospital admissions due to asthma was significantly lower (-25%?) in children who had been given MMR against un-immunised children.
  1. No vaccine is completely safe - a case was mentioned of a grown man who had died as a result of an allergic reaction to a tetanus jab.

It made me feel a bit less worried about it, although I'd probably still think twice if I had any family history of autism or gut problems. I think no matter how many medical professionals and studies say the vaccine is safe, it's still a bit scary when it's your child, and when you hear about poor parents who have suffered the devastation of regressive autism.

Peachy · 11/06/2009 07:32

£600? really? I paid £110 yesterday for the Measles jab, rubella is same again, in Bath. Well worth travelling for the difference! Google wellcare.

Peachy · 11/06/2009 07:34

Oh our history (you will get more if you post in the new vaccinations section) is that we have a ds1 whose asd is not MMR related as he clearly was before it, but DS3 seemed NT before his MMR and is now severe enough to need care at some level for his life. I suspect MMR exaccerbated a mild tendency to As, though naturally cannot prove that.

Therefore ds4 is having sibles

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