The Times Section 2 today article about boys

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I've just had a second boy and my dh assures me that as they grow up I will be the one they worship - but that said ds1 who is just 2 is besotted with his dad more so as a result of a poorly pregnancy and recent birth of ds2 monopolising my time for the last 11 months.

I have to say I was thrilled with a second boy but not sure why as everyone assumed I must want a girl - maybe next time?????

we get into all sort of arguments with generalisations as we have all found out before on other threads.
personally speaking and in no way a projection on other families...

my girl is dirty like my boys, she dresses in jeans and feminine t shirts - which she dirties in half an hour - but cant be bothered changing. she never ofers to go for a bath , her room is a disgrace and she longs to wear pink frilly things - this is becuase i have never done pink and frilly cos i cant be arsed. she has the most frightening temper, firey, short fused, not a lady like bone in her body..but she so wants to be feminine and she want to be what society claases as traditionally beautifull. she is highly emotionall and cries at the slightest look or tone of voice, she cares deeply about our feelings becuase she is so complicated she is mor demanding, becuase she is more demanding - i become more annoyed with her than i do the boys
she is a twin with a boy - who gets dirty,needs ofers to go for a bath has an untidy room - as above - but there are no demands - i dont get annoyed or frustrated and things seem to flow better. i also have an older boy and i find the same with him also.

My ds was enamoured of a pink toy pushchair at M & T the other week. My first instinct was to guide him away from it towards the 'boy' toys, but then I thought, 'Why am I thinking like that?' So I left him to it. He loved it, and then another boy tried to take it away from him! So no stereotyping there, at least from the children.

rioja - examples of my dd being manipulative - she will tell younger ds to do a naughty thing and watch him take the blame for her idea - she will persuade ds to play with something different in order to get the thing he is currently playing with for herself - she will ask for something completely unacceptable/out of the question in order that, when she later asks for something less unacceptable, although still slightly unreasonable, I am more inclined (she hopes) to agree to it.

also - I didn't generalise about boys and girls - I said MY dd is manipulative and MY dss seem more affectionate.
However, I think it is difficult to have a discussion, especially one like this, without generalising.

PS - running away when you want them to come to you I would describe as typical boy defiant behaviour; if my dd wanted to defy she would come to me and then deliberately take half an hour about finding her shoes, for example, and would quite likely do something to annoy a ds at the same time.
in a similar vein - whereas the dss will just throw a punch in full view of me when they get annoyed with someone, dd will make sure I don't see and will pinch or kick or upset in some less obvious (often verbal) way.

Goodness Jude, do we have the same kids???

I have two sons and two daughters. One of each sex has been pretty easy going and one of each sex plays endless mind games. I think so much depends on basic temperament. Now three out of my four are teenage or older, I can see that really, they haven't changed much since they were babies. I jokingly say that the main difference between girls and boys is that the former scream and the latter, shout!!

BTW, here in Indonesia, pink doesn't seem to have any of the gender connotaions it does in the West. You see men dressed in pink t-shirts and pink jackets and with their long hair held back with pink hairclips and so on. The main criteria for colour seems to be that the brighter it is, the better!

Can you buy pink clothes for boys?? I have never seen any. My current bugbear is that you can get comfy leggings for girls, but only joggers for boys which don't look nearly as neat - otherwise the alternative seems to be rather stiff-legged canvas or jeans. BTW I think the tradition for blue came about because boys were seen as precious, and blue was a "heavenly" colour - pink was just the default non-blue colour I think. Would anybody recommend the Biddulph book?

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In every day life I would agree with ks's observations but I am often struck at how manipulative/political/gossipy men are in an office environment. Generally in my experience I have found women at work to be more professional while men seem to spend more time sticking the knife in in an effort to boost their own prospects. They also seem to spend more time toadying up to senior people whereas women seem to focus more on just doing a good job.

All kids are manipulative. It does not matter what sex or age.

With fear of being told off I am going to speak my mind anwyay ! I think that they are very different and behave very differently. I only have a girl so far but observe with interest the way she and her peers play, the male and female differences are marked. I think its something to do with the way their brain develops, the boys are much more physical and often walked earlier etc and climb really well whereas dd didn't walk late but not early either and still is a little unsteady but has amazing verbal skills. I think girls are mentally quicker to develop (normally not always) and boys physically quicker. Have to say dd can be very manipulative but is also very affectionate. I think every child is capable of manipulation once they have worked out how to do it and affection also depends very much on the individual.

Talking of colours my dd loves pink but im sure that's really because I've made her love it ! Who else is guilty of 'dressing up their dolly' as my dh calls it ?!

Having always called myself a feminist and believed that its definately nurture rather than nature that defines gender roles, I hate to admit it, but the article really struck a chord with me. I too have despaired at the fact that I have bred a '21-carat male stereotype'!!!! And I do find it scary that "The opposite-sex parent holds the key to self-esteem," where does that leave my daughter who has grown up largely without her father? Experts, so called experts, do need to be read in context and kept in perspective otherwise reading them can just be yet another stick to beat yourself with and as parents who needs help to feel even more guilty?

I'm not sure on this Tillysmummy. DS was like your DD - an average walker, although steady very quickly, but he was really late at climbing, didn't crawl etc. He's not that great verbally but this is related to his glue ear. His strengths are in his fine motor skills (early self-feeder, brilliant at puzzles) and his concentration which is excellent for a two year old. I would have thought that concentration was typically an area where boys might struggle so have to put this down to DS as an individual.

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Ihave one of each, and as they are 2 years apart and only 1and 3, it is still too early to tell how they are developing. What I do know is the amount of rubbish people spout to me about it. WHen ds was born several people expressed the opinion that he was 'bigger and stronger' than dd, despite being half a pound lighter. as he has grown up there are a lot of comments about things he does being 'typical boy' things even though they are identical to the way dd behaved and developed. They have so far done most things at a similar age, but the perception of grandparents is that ds did physical type things earlier, like crawling and sitting, even though with both there was no more than a weeks difference. Before he was 1 my Mum was expressing the opinion that he would walk earlier than dd - but he is now the age she was when she took her firat couple of steps and has shown no inclination to do it at all.
He plays with cars/dolls/bricks etc in the same way she did, and shows an early fascination with clothes. There is no difference in how cuddly they are, they both are exceptionally affectionate children.
What I don't like is the idea that a boy needs his Dad around more than a girl does. Why should there be any difference?
At the risk of sticking my neck out and getting my head bitten off, I would say that a lot of the stereotypes come from society valuing boys more than girls, even in this day and age. I found that people were surprised that I didn't actively 'want' a boy after dd, I just wanted another baby. I'm sure I read asurvey once that said more people wanted their firstborn to be a boy rather than a girl.

I've been constantly amazed this year by how boyish our wonderful ds is. He's 17 months old and is being raised by myself and my dp, who's also a woman - we sometimes worry we're not 'rough enough' with him, like Dads are, and that he hasn't got a male role model constantly around him, but he's still such a boy (which is wonderful!). He crawled and walked early - is now really into climbing - everything! He loves planes, trains, van, lorries - anything big with wheels! He's not as dextrous as girls his age, or as patient with things like looking through books - he's too busy running around..!

I think nature definitely has its part to play, and as for nurture - we're just trying to keep up with him!

I'm not a fan of Steve Biddulph. I read the book cover to cover, and though there were some things I agreed with, I thought he took everything way too far. And some things stuck out as being completely off the wall ... this is from memory as I put the book in the bin rather than send it to the charity shop as I disliked it so much ... I think he said that boys shouldn't be allowed to see their mother naked in the shower or whatever beyond the age of 3 ..?

Not sure that anyone will agree 100% with any childcare guru. Children are individual and do not come with a handbook, and no-one can really write one for them. That said writers can make you think about aspects of parenting, society etc that you might not otherwise have thought about - even if the conclusion is that you disagree with the writer's opinion! If it makes you think about what you do and why, then it was probably worth reading.

Not that Biddulph goes on a great deal about education, but one of the issues I have been thinking about is what the best sort of schooling would be for our sons. There have been a couple of articles recently suggesting that the coursework and groupwork aspects of the National Curriculum better serve girls than boys. Obviously the amount of effort in order to even the gap in results between the sexes (previously with boys ahead) has been definitely worthwhile, but hopefully efforts would be made so that all pupils can attain their best. Not sure that the current system will allow that, but will be interested to compare a couple of single-sex schools with mixed when we start looking. Unfortunately it still won't be a fair comparison as the single-sex schools will be private (no option locally). But at the end of the day it is looking at what would suit our children as "individuals" taking into account their gender rather than determining what is best for them on the basis of their gender.

Out of interest anyone here with a dd who is obsessed by Thomas the Tank Engine? We're being forced into watching the videos/playing with the trains etc almost constantly, and dh noted that the behavious of the engines really did remind him naughty little prep school boys!

Just a few points.
Giggler, it may sound strange, the shower thing, but I've read other sources that also say that opposite sex parental nudity is not a good idea (I think I read after age 2) but same sex nudity, is very beneficial.

Susanmt, I'm not sure that's down to sociaty's valuing boys more. I have 2 boys. Everyone assumed I would want 1st child to be a girl. I had a boy. Then everyone assumed I would want 2nd child to be a girl, I didn't. It (he) wasn't. Now I'm pg a 3rd time, I get comments like - "Oh well, maybe you'll strike lucky this time" or "You know what they say - third time lucky" or "Oh, I feel sure you'll get a girl this time". People just seem hung up on the idea that you'll want one of each. So I found the opposite, although of course in some societies/cultures today, and in Britain many a year ago, a male child was important for inheritance rights etc, but I don't think this is the case now.

Both my ds's have also gone straight for the 'boys toys'. I chose lots of gender non-specific stuff like animals, but both ds's first words were 'car' and they remain obsessed. Not got onto the guns yet, thankfully. They played with a barbie for a very short while (about 10 minutes) but just played with her boobs then had her eaten by their crocodiles.