did anyone read the article in last sunday's observer about raising boys...

[beforesunrise]

... and thought it was really, well, a bit crap? it was all about boys are being shortchanged by society, are much more likely to go to jail or be knifed etc. so far so good.

but then it went on to identifying the reasons as an increasinlgy "feminised" education system and teh fact that boys don't get to run around enough.

no mention of the huge impact of fatherless households, or of the stark divides of those crime stats by racial and economic background.

but, more fundamentally, i just don't think it is true that boys have it so hard. i mean, girls get into trouble in ways that don't make the headlines- ie they get pregnant, for example. and women are still marginalised and discriminated against in many parts of society. i reckon it's still harder to be born a girl than a boy. and raising girls is as hard if not harder, in the long run.

maybe because i am a mother of two girls, but i am still annoyed by it- so superficial, and so WRONG...

anyone else?

Totally agree with stillenacht.

thanks cornsilk

"3 years of 'now come and do this, sit here, stop fidgeting etc etc' from largely female teachers/TA's by which time the seeds of dissafection have already been sown."

What difference does it make if this is to boys or girls from female teachers/TAs rather than male teachers/TAs?

Surely the disaffection is caused by what is being forced on the child who is not ready for it.

I've lived in many a terraced house the rooms were all vast compared to many of the modern detatched modern houses I've seen. It's no secret that modern day houses are built on a smaller scale,the more you squeeze the more the builder gets so the smaller they are to fit more in. Gardens are a huge casualty to parking space so people can park the 2 cars they now need to ferry kids round in.

Juuule - just look at an average primary classroom (and i have seen hundreds) and tell me who is more ready to learn by sitting at the table at age 5 - boys or girls - of course there are individual anecdotes we can all say about 'well my DS was on biff and Chip level8 by the time they were 5 and my DD couldn't read a level one book at 6" but in general (and i know generalisations are an awful thing but i have seen it time and again).

Maybe so but there are definitely some small roomed older houses around where I live.
And regardless of that I don't think children should be that boisterous around the house anyway.
According to my dad(76), if he wasn't quiet in the house he'd get a clip round the ear and thrown out to play.

Why are there so many boys in the remedial groups if disaffection hasn't begun to set in/or lack of maturity....sa i said before in my sons class - 10 kids in the remedial group (including DS)and one girl in there.My cousin teaching at a MLD school last week for pupils expelled from mainstream primary 21 boys and 1 girl.......why? Time and again this pattern repeats itself - something is failing these boys.

Stillenacht, I've no idea about classrooms in general. I can only go off my children really, I suppose.

"something is failing these boys"

I agree with that.

But stillenacht have the girls been trained from birth to sit still? i think that has a lot to do with it...

I have been looking at my own behaviour and thinking about this thread today. I am pg and been feeling very down and not wanting to leave the house. Poor old DD is therefore stuck in with me. Before I got pg I made sure I took her out every day, and as soon as she could walk I made sure she got a good walk. Now she can run and play ball. But I keep her in. I was wondering if she were a boy, would I feel worse about this, would I find a way to get the exercise in, force myself to go out however much I didn't want to? My honest answer was, maybe. Maybe I would behave differently. As it is I am encouraging her to draw quietly at the table and her begging to go out and play ball gets a flat "no". I suspect if she were a boy I would respond differently .

I honestly think it is so ingrained we just don't notice.

Thoroughly agree with Juule on this.

And have put metatron's book on wish list, it's out of stock at the mo

My son has never sat and drawn quietly despite hours of pleading with him to sit down - he literally has ants in his pants Although at school he is respectful (he bloody better be with two teachers for parents) and sits still - he has a tendency to daydream.

Even as a 2/3/4yo my son would never sit and draw/paint but would want to be in the garden (even if pouring with rain) making huts and mud pies and skidding on his trike/scooter/bike.

This doesn't proove anything tho but thats my experience of my boy. i remember as a little girl spending hours sitting in my room drawing and making up stories/comics/newspaper things by the time i was his age now (9)...he has never off his own back done any of these things despite me suggesting it (on numerous occasions) and would still rather do the aforementioned things....

Stillenacht your ds sounds like my ds2 and dd1.

Stillenacht you seem to have missed my point.

My DD wants to be in the garden running around in the rain. Of course she does.

I tell her no.

She doesn't sit and draw. I encourage her to draw. She stands at the table and does a scribble then starts on about the garden again...

No i understand that you encourage her to draw but the eventuality is that she actually does it - my son would refuse point blank. He wouldn't actually seem to be able to sit still as if asking him to sit and draw (colouring books totally passed him by too :-() is like asking him to gauge his eyes out. Of course i understand that many many girls are kinaesthetic learners too (and this obviously is not all about learning styles either).

Bigbella I encourage my boys to draw-they don't.

I don't ask her to sit and draw. She stands at a baby size table and I try and get her to draw. She does one scribble and says "ball" and runs to the patio doors and begs.

She never actually does any drawing.

You seem very keen to believe that she will sit still and draw. I'm not sure why.

The reason I brought it up was that I am trying to force her into a gender mould - to do something quiet rather than run around outside - and that this is a failing of mine.

And if I am doing this despite trying to be aware of it, what are people who don't even think about this stuff doing.

Stillenacht I used to let mine go upstairs or get chairs and build dens if they wanted to do something more active if they couldn't go out but wouldn't sit still. They usually just got on with it.
Still do with my younger children.

Same here - thats what i did. DS1 now makes transistor things in the garage (he is obsessed with DT) and solders all these little connections together (I haven't a clue what he is doing but everything lights up and makes sounds). DS2 (who has severe autism) spends his days watching the same youtube videos over and over and over (typhoon waterslide - wow its fascinating NOT!!) and watching his Thomas the Tank trains going round and round....

DD has the run of the house but it's the ball and garden she's got a bee in her bonnet about. When she's older she can go out by herself but we've got a lot of concrete and she's not 2 yet...

Baffled as to how asking DD to do something has somehow translated into her doing it!!

I also ask her not to take all the wipes out of the packet, not to kick mummy while having her nappy changed, not to put her soft toys in the bath while it's running. Doesn't stop her though...

hey look bigbella i am trying to force my son out of the supposed gender mould as i am desperate for him to sit and do something nice and quiet but to no avail

She is very young still but at 4/5 i wonder if she will be more interested in sitting and drawing, making things than her little male friends, I bet she will.

We have drawers full of colouring books well meaning grandparents have given- totally unused by the boys. DD and the 3 girls I mind love them.

SN have you tried making up a huge box of bits and bobs to stick. Dtwin 2 does love to stick if he's in the mood.

Also in desperation I bought Do You Doodle by Nikalas Catlow for my boys. They have half a picture to finish and recently they've actually done the odd squiggle (I was sadly squealing with glee).

same here MilaMae

I think the sticking things he has grown out of that stage without ever doing it!

Yes we have the doodle book - unused.....

Have just seen that while I have been on here DS1 has been writing tonight !!!!! - he is writing about the army game he and his best friend are going to play tomoro and sorting out strategy whether its indoors or out...

Boys find it harder to sit quietly. I've seen it so many times - every class I've taught anyway. It can't just be coincidence and forced gender roles that causes this. As stillenacht says, there are always exceptions to the rule. But in general, in my experience, boys find it harder to sit still and concentrate - in primary school anyway.

Well....

Lots and lots of running around is the key for either gender surely...

4/5 is so small to sit still and do stuff carefully, one of my friends has extremely well behaved children and I find it a bit odd really, a bit devoid of fun.

Will he sit on the carpet and do lego? That used to keep my brother particularly quiet... while I experimented with old plugs and electrical screwdrivers...

I suppose the thing is that my mum keeps saying happily how DD seems to be a "girly girl". After me it must be lovely... I never could get excited about clothes etc properly. If DD is a girly girl so be it, but she's going to have to run around and learn about physics as well