a new super race?

[rosieglo]

Re the article in the guardian about the baby that was successfully screened for the breast cancer gene and the controversy about 'designer babies' - what's the fuss? I'm thinking that breeding out illness and disabilty is a great thing. Improving intelligence also; hopefully the smarter the future generations are the more likely they will find ways to halt our destruction of the planet and stop fighting. What's wrong with wanting fitter, stronger, cleverer and healthier children? And I think it is so wrong for a deaf or blind parent to actively seek out a way to pass their disability on, I cannot begin to understand how they could want to deprive their child of the ability to hear music or see the world around them.
hmmn - for me it's a pretty straight forward matter.

wrinklytum nice post and well put

S2S, your take on the ethics of freedom of speech is highly questionable

Excess testosterone in the womb is also linked with male homesexuality. The links betweekn causation and not mere corolation are cnstantky being measured. Corrolation proves nothing - except room for more study.

I am fine with you, Xenia, claiming to be 'privledged' with information regarding your speciality; it's when people delve into areas not of their specilaity that misunderstandings occur. Xenia, play to your strengths, regardless of how many of your family are psychologists, or how many conversations yo have been privy to, that does not make you one.

"if 50% of city traders were women we might well not have had some of teh financial problems we now have because there woudl be less testosterone but that's a separate issue - the benefits of putting men in the kitchen and women in the workplace. "

LOL Xenia. You seem unaware that women who excell in those arenas already have more testosterone in them than average. I know, th ehope that women are 'better' than men is ver seductive - but if women tok part in more ruthless, life or death persuits, their testosterone would increase too. I begin to see a softer, wishful thinking, side to your understanding of all this. Its interesting.

Xenia, you've written, "see the comments that autism might be a social good and indeed perhaps even is a better kind of person we shoudl all be working to ensure our children are.. .may be, though I don't agree...."

Tony Attwood, the international expert on Asperger syndrome, says this of us:

"The person usually has a strong desire to seek knowledge, truth and perfection with a different set of priorities than would be expected with other people. There is also a different perception of situations and sensory experiences. The overriding priority may be to solve a problem rather than satisfy the social or emotional needs of others. The person values being creative rather than co-operative.The person with Aspergers syndrome may perceive errors that are not apparent to others, giving considerable attention to detail, rather than noticing the ?big picture?.The person is usually renowned for being direct, speaking their mind and being honest and determined and having a strong sense of social justice.The person may actively seek and enjoy solitude, be a loyal friend and have a distinct sense of humour."

It's not all fun, because current society rates 'party-going skills' far higher than practical contribution to society, but those are its good qualities in the majority of those with an ASD.

You might not want a child more likely to be honest, accurate and socially responsible, nor see the value of those traits to society, but I'd be fine with one. Luckily I have one. He's absolutely wonderful.

wt, I know and I didn't say no worth. I said less worth and if we could ensure children weren't like that so much the better. Also I know my siblings and I and my father wanted him to die sooner when his qualify of life was so bad but that's a different issue again. if can eradicate disability that would be great. That does not mean our individual children aren't loved as they are.

MT I know that's part of why women succeed. It's probably the case with me too although I've never had it tested. But most women in the City have less testosterone than most men even those with high levels. There have been some studies in the press recently about it.

On Aspergers I thought most people with autism and aspergers were low functioning and not very bright so if most are like that the utility issuei s whether we lose a huge gain for mankind if we ensured no one had that and we woudl then lose the 0.01% who might be enstein etc. If we could find out how to ensure only those with the genius bit were born or even tamper with things so that we ensure those good bits come out and not the more difficult bits then that would be good. What we must not be is scared to investigate. These conditions are difficult as probably a lot of us have some of those traits. I may do in some respects. But what I was more interested in was being rid of things which really are very difficult both for a child and its family particularly if that can be done without abortion, like the childn who can never walk or talk or is doubly incontinent or has ani IQ of 80 etc. My down's sister died as a baby. I know my father was glad (she had heart disease too) even though he'd devoted decades to working with chidlren of that kind at a time when there were few NHS resources going into that and I am sure my mother wished she had lived although I think she would have preferred a last baby without down's. Taht doesn't mean we wouldnt' have loved her had she surivved more than 3 weeks but I think it was best she did die.

Riven - please don?t think it is the vast majority! I saw your name was the last post and so clicked on this thread again (been avoiding it as the first time I looked it really upset me).

My immediate family are all non disabled and I wildly disagree with many of these viewpoints. While I am not shocked at all that so many caring and intelligent people here have such strong views about people with disabilities that seem so heartless and (struggling for non inflammatory terms) small minded, I would say that there are PLENTY of people in the world with no personal experience of disability who do not hold these views. People can have compassion and empathy without direct personal experience I believe.

You have made such great points on here but I think you are not going to change the world overnight. However, on a positive note, not all of it needs changing

"On Aspergers I thought most people with autism and aspergers were low functioning and not very bright "

Well, no. There can be low functioning or lower intelligence, there can be high functioning and higher intelligence. Just like the rest of the population, to be honest. But the ones who are very low functioning get almost 100% of the publicity.

There are probably some 500,000 individuals with an ASD in the UK. We have found only a fraction of them so far because there are no central records kept anywhere, and because most adults were never even considered for a diagnosis. Most are people like me, from what we're now finding - people who have found ways to 'carve themselves a niche' in society somehow despite a complete lack of services available for us. And it's hard work, so very hard. Especially when people think the world would be a better place if we hadn't existed in the first place.

No, I don't feel good about being thought of in that way. Not at all. You wouldn't either. But I wouldn't think that about you, you see. That wouldn't make sense to me, to think that some people don't match the right criteria to deserve to live.

Oh Xenia really you are making some appallingly ignorant glib comments now.

I think I know what Xenia means -- my sister had a mosiac of Edwards and lived for 6 years. She was in incredible pain constantly and couldn't ever communicate verbally.

So, it was a relief for her when she died as her life was getting to the unbearable stage

Oh dear Xenia, for a supposedly intelligent woman you really are showing your ignorance here.

You thought all people with Asperger's were of low intelligence? I have 5 DSs; 4 of them have AS. They are all very, very bright, all with a high IQ-three of them very gifted in Maths.

The diagnostic criteria for AS state that the person must have an average or above average IQ.

Many of those at the top of their professions have AS-they are the innovative thinkers, or the ones able to really focus on the detail. (Bill Gates is thought to have AS, as well as Einstein and many other great thinkers.) You would really get rid of all of them?

Riven - What Lemontart said. I don't think you can draw any conclusions about non disabled people's attitudes from one or two people's views on this thread. I'm non disabled with no disabled family and I don't think like that. I think things are changing, but too slowly. If you think that 30 years ago, people used to often live in institutions. I've been shocked by some of the views on this thread, but maybe you just need to hide the thread now? I think I'm going to do that anyway.

ilovemydogandMrObama that is very hard.
but read all her posts on here and you will see she is not talking just about pain filled conditions, but disabilities such as deafness

ilovemydogandMrObama that is very hard.
but read all her posts on here and you will see she is not talking just about pain filled conditions, but disabilities such as deafness

ilovemydogandMrObama that is very hard.
but read all her posts on here and you will see she is not talking just about pain filled conditions, but disabilities such as deafness

oops, my keyboard and mouse are playing up

oops, my keyboard and mouse are playing up

"so that we ensure those good bits come out and not the more difficult bits then that would be good."

you don't need gene selection and/or selective abortion for that; everyday parents of kids on the spectrum do various interventions - ranging from speech therapy to dietary tweaks to behavioural therapies to help their kids achieve as much as possible.

If you want good ethics 2shoes, you need to be able to discuss even the unpalatable

MT no I don't ahve to do anything

I haven't read the entire thread but am v distressed by some of the thinking here. It all goes back to what we think about quality of life. Does someone who lives for 20 yrs not deserve to because evereyone should live for 3 score yrs and 10? As someone with a disability that could be screened I find it shocking to think I could be viewed as something to throw away because I'm no good.

I am stunned by some of the commenst on this thread - the ignorance and self arrogance is astounding.

One person's "disability" is for others just a difference between people and the way the are.

Surely every life created = an equal life, all of equal worth? How can anyone possibly consider it otherwise. Who are you to decide you, or your children, are worth more than the next baby, child or adult?

I am truely disgusted by some comments here

i personally wouldn't bring a child into the world that i knew would die within a few years and be in constant pain.

Maybe the best thing for this thread now is for it to reach 1000 and be stopped for good.