Cleft lip abortion done 'in good faith'

[Janos]

Just spotted this article in the Guardian - Idon't know if anyone else remembers this case, and thought it was worth bringing up as the dubject of late term abortions has been in the news recently.

Briefly (from the article) "Joanna Jepson, 28, now at St Michael's Church, Chester, but then a trainee vicar, found out about the procedure in 2002 when studying abortion statistics and suggested that it amounted to unlawful killing"

Was just wondering what people thought about this? IMO the right decision was made.

Completely agree with you Caligula. No woman goes in to a late stage abortion casually. It is difficult for everyone involved. Including the police officers waiting outside the theatre to take away "tissue" for DNA matching in rape cases.

Bubble: I've not heard of that two-stage procedure: what is the medical term for it? I don't see how a cord can be cut - my understanding is that it's all basically done 'blind' through the cervix, so lethal injection through the heart is the normal procedure.

Dilation and evacuation takes about 30 minutes and doesn't require an overnight stay. The amniotic fluid is sucked out, and then fetal tissues are basically chopped up and sucked out. This is usual procedure for the second trimester.

Dilation and extraction is when the fetus is delivered whole through the cervix and is usually killed first by injection through the heart.

\link{http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3828701.stm\BBC Article about babies surviving terminations)

(This is my understanding of it all, anyway.)

Sorry arsed up the link:

BBC article on babies surviving terminations

For information, Dilation and Extraction is known as the controversial 'partial birth' method, which is a hot topic in America.

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I don't think that the law was called into question, but the issue was whether the law was incorrectly applied. The late-term abortion is justified if there is "substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped."

The argument was about whether a cleft palate constituted a 'serious handicap' (which is a decision that doctors make, incidentally, not the parents, so to some degree it is irrelevant whether the parents think they can cope with this level of disability).

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Abortion is such a hard topic as so many people have different opinions. I thank God that my mum didn't have an abortion as I certainly wasn't planned - I was concieved after my mum went on antibiotics whilst on the pill.
I'm not pro or anti abortion. In the majoirty of cases, I believe nobody but the mother can have the right opinion as to whether it is right for them to have an abortion.
However, I do remember reading some news story about a "wealthy" woman who had one of her twins aborted because she "could not cope with raising twins".

Statistics extracted for you!

13-19 weeks terminations (11% of total terminations performed):

Vacuum aspiration (only) ------ 50%
Vacuum aspiration with D and E ---- 17%
D and E ------- 14%
Prostaglandins/P. with other agents - 2%
Antiprogesterone ------ 16%

20+ weeks terminations (2% of total terminations performed):

Vacuum aspiration (only) ------ 6%
Vacuum aspiration with D and E ---- 19%
D and E ------- 38%
Prostaglandins/P. with other agents - 14%
Antiprogesterone ------ 17%
Other medical/combined methods ---- 5%

In all honesty I can't say how I'd feel if I was having a baby with a fairly "minor" problem. Until I had a baby who died I felt very sure of my sense of right and wrong. Through lots of people trying to enforce their views on me I began to feel that it is no-one else's business. As a result I hope I am now more tolerant. I would be incensed if someone tried to interfere in my personal decision about my family. Incidentally, we chose not to opt for "selective foeticide" as offered to us for our twin with a lethal heart condition as it would have jeopardised my pregnancy and therefore dd2's life. However, it was entirely our decision and no-one with a personal agenda would have had the right to have a say.

I find this story very difficult, and can't bring myself to read the whole lot. I have no idea how much this woman had found out about her baby and to know if he/she had more than a hare lip and cleft palatte.

If it was just HL/CP then I really don't see how it can, in developed conutries, be justifable. My brother was born with both in 1974. He had various operations, some quite large and serious ops. His last op, as an adult, was very serious - jaws wired for weeks, etc. BUT babies born now with the same problems need far less ops, and have far more spectacular results from the ops too.

My brother has never let this affect his life. yes, he suffered some teasing as a child - but so did other kids at our tough school, and for all sorts of other isses - glasses, height, hair colour, etc.

He still became an intelligent, bright, caring man. He has a first class degree in software engineering, he works internationally doing computer software/engineering stuff for large gas companies, he earns lots and is very successful at whtat he does. He now just needs to stay living in this country for a few months and find himself a woman to get him to settle down (instead of having "friends" from various worldwide places!!!

I know that abortion is a very emotive issue, whenever it occirs and for whatever reasons. I am not anti-abortion - there is always going to be a necessity for it, but late abortions for minor diabilities????

The two stage abortion is carried out in BPAS clinics. Sorry, can't do links but if you do a search for BPAS and click on the "abortion options after 14 weeks" you will find information about the procedure there. The D&E stage is the 2nd stage and no, it doesn't require an overnight stay. The woman stays at the clinic for one night only after the first stage when the amniotomy is performed and the cord is cut. Some women will then spontaneously abort overnight and will then return to theatre for a D&C to ensure placental fragments are not still in utero, but most will require the second stage D&E. The NHS refers patients to BPAS for abortions at all stages of gestation. There is a reciprocal arrangement whereby BPAS carries out the NHS abortion lists to free up theatre lists for other ops. BPAS is then able to use NHS ITU facilities for any cases requiring critical care as a result of abortion - eg DIC.

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Checked it out Bubble99, it doesn't mention the procedure used to kill the fetus. Mentions injection of urea (same principle as saline I believe) for the prostaglandin-induced abortion but not what is used before the D&E. I'm sure the cord isn't cut because I understand they can't be precise enough about this. My understanding is that the fetus has to be poisoned. But I am willing to stand corrected - can you find the details for me?

morningpaper - is this the process you mean? This comes from the Society for the protection of the unborn child, so is written in a VERY emotive method, but it is the only site I have found yet with the process you refer to.

Abortion by salt-poisoning

A concentrated salt solution is injected into the amniotic fluid, killing the baby by acute salt poisoning. This technique is used after 16 weeks. It is no longer common in many Western countries because of its dangers to the mother, but pro-abortionists have exported this cheap technique for abortions to the majority world (developing countries) such as India.

It takes over an hour for the baby to die. After 24 hours, the mother goes into labour and delivers the dead child (although there are recorded cases of American babies, including singer Gianna Jessen, having survived the procedure).

Like animals, babies cannot tell us whether they are in pain. One indication of suffering is their reaction to what we would find painful.

Prostaglandin

An alternative (more expensive) late abortion drug is prostaglandin. It is not free of dangers to the mother, being associated with risks of haemorrhage, infection and retention of the placenta requiring surgical intervention. Prostaglandin causes powerful contractions of the womb expelling the fetus, and usually killing him or her in the process, although in some instances babies have been delivered alive as a result. In later abortions, doctors inject a further drug (such as the poison urea) into the womb, to ensure that the baby does not survive.

(I think there is a procedure where the cord is cut, but that's only when the fetus is being delivered like a caesarean i.e. the hysterotomy procedure, which is rare).

Did some agency work for BPAS last year and the two stage procedure with amniotomy and cord cutting was definately on the list. I know that at that time they were having problems finding surgeons willing to carry out this type of abortion so "The fetal heart is stopped" may now well mean that this is by an injection rather than cord cutting.
I think it's important for me to point out at this juncture that I am not an advocate of late stage abortion. It is a horible procedure for everyone involved, yes, including the fetus. I am just passing on my experience and by a surgical method no fetus is born alive. Whatever means are used to cause fetal death, be it cord severance(sp?) or injection, the surgeons IME use ultrasound to ensure that the fetus is dead before removal.

www.arc-uk.org/

Search for "surgical two stage abortion" and you will find NVSH if you go to their site you will find a description of the procedure for amniotomy, cord severance and D&E.

good to see this being debated in the press in any case - I suspect no other outcome would have been possible in this investigation - but hopefully the fact that it has been so high profile will mean future late abortions will be properly justified as they are meant to be.

I am very uncomfortable with our late date for 'normal' abortions tbh and would prefer an earlier cut off date but when it is necessary for medical reasons and those reasons are sound then, at the very least, the woman who is counselled and decides to abort should not have to fear a future investigation like this.

Going back to what others on this thread were saying, I'm afraid I think some women would very easily abort at such a late stage in pregnancy for trivial reasons, although if this was the case this time round, I have no idea.

I think it's also important to remember/realise that a very small percentage of abortions carried out in the UK each year are "late stage."

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I agree Socci. You'd think that any major abnormality would have been picked up by then.

How awful that there's even a need to do such things. I wish I hadn't read some of this. A friend of mine had to have a much-wanted baby boy terminated at 5+mths because she'd been diagnosed with leukaemia. They used the salt method - this was some years ago. She said her little boy was perfect and just fitted into her dh's hand. Tragically, my friend died of the leukaemia about 18mths later, leaving two little girls behind.

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Oh suedonim