So can someone please tell me where this £500 billion has come from?

[Callisto]

Because I don't understand. Has GB borrowed it from somewhere and if so where?

noddy, any one of us could do a better job running the economy than the idiots who got us into the mess by playing pass the ruddy parcel. But you are right, the Mr Bigs will get away scott-free with their ill-gotten gains. Makes me want to spit.

saintriven was peak oil 2006?

Callisto, I'm not normally one for The End is Nigh stuff (honest) but I gets shivers up and down me spine thinking about it all.

It depends who you talk to but alledgedly George W Bush was briefed that peak oil had been reached in 2005.

begins hoarding dry goods in the understairs cupboard

wow why are people not more worried about sourcing new fuels etc

The US fields reached Peak years ago but it depends on what geologist you ask. Last year it was reported the big fields had been making up their reserves to boost their share prices and there was less left than we thought.
Its thought Peak is roughly about now in that we've used up 50% of availble oil. course, that half was the easy-to-get-at half, the rest will be more expenisve and harder to get add, add wars and unrest and its not good.
In the UK we do have 300 years of coal but while that will create electrcity and it wont run cars and will cause nasty pollution.
I like to think politicians/corporate bosses/oil bosses aren't as stupid as they look and are planning energy when fossil fuels have run out. At least I hope. But I think its will be a bastard time to be poor as the poor will be fucked first while the rich still fly/have yatchs etc
I don't understand why there isn't more effeort into conservation and why the average bod still thinks its ok to drive everywhere and guzzle electrcity etc

I think people like Sarah Palin think that God will provide. If only she could get past those pesky Polar Bear huggers.

this is me here
the bit where the straps and poppers start to burst

Shame they got rid of all the people who know how to get coal out of the ground, isn't it?

Daisy Steiner - to reiterate what Noddyholder said - Darling DID say (yes, on C4 News yesterday) councils would NOT be covered as they should be more financially prudent than the average person.

it'll be coming for your wage packet, i'm afraid.

here and you can watch yesterday's C4 News here if you wish.

Yes, he said they're in a "slightly different position" and didn't guarantee that he would help them out in the same way as retail investors but that is NOT the same as saying he wouldn't help them. Can you not see the subtle difference there? And anyway, tonight he has said that councils will be offered some help on a case by case basis.

And I'm still waiting to hear if you've got a better solution to this crisis than the loans and investments the government is making in the banking system.

Why should I have a better solution? I'm not chancellor.

and why so aggressive - work for the Treasury?

LOL, I wish. I'm just strangely attracted to men with contrasting hair and eyebrow colours.

mmmm, he is a strange-looking man, wonder if he was Mr Rochester-like before he went white

I see they are still advertising for people to go bankrupt instead of paying back their debts. Just a couple of drops in the ocean I know. People won't be able to live way above their means for the next decade or so but that will slow the economy which is bad news too.

Watched something on U tube about the sub prime market, Bird and Fortune which was a funny sketch, they asked who were the stupid ones and the reply was the ones who questioned what the actual properties were worth, had they not this wouldn't be happening.

Yes the days of the gold standard are long gone.

I reckon taxes will have to increase. Lets hope it from the top earners. If we can catch them before they go abroad to live.

'My first thought on all this was
what happens if it doesn't work?

That is £13k per taxpayer down the shitter

What then?'

I've tried to ask this many times now on these threads.

Because there is no guarantee a bailout will stave off worsening recession.

But no one seems able to answer.

It's all just: if you don't agree you're a shit because if we don't the sky will fall down and everyone will lose their jobs and freeze in the dark.

Well, sorry, but I come at this from a different point of view.

Because I come from a place where fear and panic were whipped up to control people as a whole and make them more compliant.

I saw it happen and people basically turning into sheep and to be frank it scared the beegezus out of me that to simply question or express scepticism was seen as being inhumane and stupid that I left.

He has indicated he will help them in their endeavour to claim their money but will not compensate in the same way as he has promised the general public/savers.

Guys- I haven't read all this threads but a couple of points to note:

-the UK govt did the right think by offering to buy PREFERENCE shares in the banks. This way the tax payer will PROBABLY make a profit at the expense of existing shareholders! The US and other countries may now move towards the UK scheme!

-Also, this could be a direct way to for the govt to regulate banks by having significant boardroom influence e.g. moderate excessive risk taking.

Obviously the plan was rushed so it is not perfect by any means but BEST PLAN PROPOSED by any govt to date. See today's FT if you don't believe me. Great to see the public do a shrewd deal with the private sector for a change in addition to attempting stabilisation.

I think there needs to be an unpacking of the 'bad debt' and sooner rather than later. From limited knowledge think that will be bad Feb/March next year as various big banks have debts falling due then and that's around the time US 'Alt-A' debts are going to start coming in (that's one up from sub-prime but still crap). Think it will be interesting to see what happens when/if companies in PFI can't roll their debt over. Does anyone know how much we're in for on that front? Found it v. annoying that GB was going on and on about transparency re. banking when so much is hidden under the carpet on this front.

Think solution is to move towards some kind of land value tax than could be adjusted annually (bit like Council Tax) rather than being so into income tax. Tis land values that create the bubble from the little I know. Think there also has to be support for keeping job-seekers and those made redundant in their homes - think they are now going to pay interest from 13th week of benefit claim - but only on mortgages of a certain amount (below £150k?). Think maybe ceiling should be higher as would be cheaper in long run. Think to some extent is a matter of 'sitting it out' until bad debts are thru' system; in meantime Govt. should strain everything to support small and medium size business - they are (I think) the biggest employers in the country and may be more flexible when the upturn does come. Think this approach is better than Paulson but not convinced it will work - bit like pouring more water into leaking bucket without mending it. Also seems to ignore the fact that it is not a 'liquidity' problem but a debt problem - and the banks know this. Think stuff I've read on China sounds bad potentially - they need to recapitalise their central bank and have got lots of US bits of paper or something like that. Off to watch Question Time with a glass of something nice

Banks are meant to make provisions for bad debts and take into account the economic cycle. Santander took more provisions than the avareage bank in the good times. They will need it given what we will see in Spanish housing sector!!