'Bring Back National Service'.....Yay or Nay???

[tiredemma]

Just seen a news item on Sky where a 'Knife Tsar' is suggesting brining back National Service.

Brooke Kinsella (sis of murdered Ben Kinsella) suggested the same the other day.

I know very little about National Service so cannot comment on whether its a good thing or a bad thing.

What do you lot think????

No, self control is in order! I am unable to comment

Aw shucks!!

NAY

sorry left handede typing + caps!

don't beilieve forces have ethos or morals that should be rolled out to whole generations
think it is misjudging teens to think just because they don't don't have a job or a uni to go to they are waste of time and casn't make own decisions

I've just gone back and re-read the whole thread and geeezzz....

Nobody is going to give these kids guns or weapons and send them out to the frontline if they do national service in the military, it's more about the discipline and struture that can be learned in the military that the schools have lost power to provide and lets face it a large number of kids are sadly missing in their lives and then end up getting involved in things they shouldn't.

There are loads of jobs in the military that they could do or in the community but I think a spell in the military learning basic respect wouldn't do most kids any harm at all.

It really makes me cross when people assume that all anyone in the army does is learn to kill people!

I'm sure there are loads of admin stuff that the hospitals and police could do with some help for, and councils, and charities, etc etc.

It could open the door for all sorts of opportunites and I wish they'd had it when I was younger.

Thing is Maggie, that is part of ethos that I personally wouldn't want for my children. Certain traditional methods of discipline that used to be prevalent in schools that gave them their 'power'(?) are also ones I'm pleased to see the back of.

Respect is very important, blind obedience is not. In the general population. imvho.

kids are killing each other though. something needs to be done fast.

Some Army high-up was interviewed about this the other day and his basic premise was "thanks but no thanks" to punishing naughty boys and girls by making them join the army. Personally, I think they should make them marry someone in the army - then they'd know what suffering is

How about making it compulsory for any teenager caught with a knife?

Sort of "If you so want to hurt people, join the army and fight for your country"

Not a cross-post as such but I'm aware my flip comment sits badly after southeastastra's which appeared while I was typing mine.

Surely part of the problem lies with the selfish direction society seems to be taking. There's an "I want it and I AM entitled to it" culture which has made many young people care little for other people.

I like the idea of national service if it could be something like Belgo#s idea. and general volunteer work is included.

so the army is the only way people can possibly learn to respect one another? you would think so from reading this thread! I've never been closer to the army than living next door to a cadet training centre but I respect everyone I meet. How on earth can this be?

and of course nothing terrible ever happens to people living in army barracks so our kids will all be perfectly safe. Structure and discipline.

AuntieMaggie - i don't think anyone was saying all everyone in the army ever does is kill people. But you have to admit from the chefs to the medical staff the aim of the forces is to be armed and ready to fight if need be. Not everyone in the forces will do the actual killing themselves of course. no one is suggesting they will. But everyone pulls in the same direction -they're all cogs in the same wheel.

And ok national service might not involve the kids in actual conflict but the whole ethos they will be indoctrinated into emulates from the purpose that the army/navy/airforce were set up for in the first place: war.

And i don't want my daughter indoctrinated into that mindset. She gets discipline and more importantly a solid ethical and moral upbringing involving the words 'don't hurt others. ever.' from me. and that is what i want her to have.

NAY, WE SHOULD BE ENCOURAGING KIDS TO BE PEACEFUL, CIVILISED INDIVIDUALS, NOT TO BE JOINING THE ARMY! (imo!) XxX

but we've failed girlie so.....

Yes but only if it is volunteering rather than army as I think that is an insult to those who join the army as a lifetime career choice.

What I mean is something like the VSO, run along similar army lines of discipline but I would imagine that being sent to some of the poorer countries and seeing the reality of certain cultures would sober some of them up.

Nay
why should law abiding youths be treated the same as the bad ones.

No to National Service.
Yes to boot camp for ASBO kids.

I don't think that member of the armed forces are particularly well behaved or "moral" in any case. There have been some terrible episodes of bullying in training camps (Deepdale anyone?) and plenty of accounts of squaddies out on the pull getting drunk and up to no good (thinking about the rape case in Sicily I think). After all if they were all so moral etc then there wouldn't be a need for the MP would there.

Organisations like VSO only want trained people with skills and commitment. I had a great year out, and it taught me a lot, but many of the schemes set up to send young people out to disadvantaged parts of the world have been found to be of little value to those receiving them.

Also I have met a number of Europeans (and Israelis) escaping from military service, which doesn't tell me it is something that they look forward to with great enthusiasm.

'we' haven't failed, 2shoes. a minority of parents have failed to teach their children how to behave in a peaceful and civilised manner.

The vast majority of us succeed in bringing up well behaved, functional members of society, as usual it's an incredibly small minority of teenagers and young people who succeed in tarnishing the reputation of the minority and striking fear into the hearts of society as a whole.

My late husband was in the RAF

He was exceptionally 'well behaved' and 'moral'

So much so that he was presented with the MBE for 'Exceptional leadership and courge in the face of a terminal illness' 3 days before her died.

and if that isn't good enough a person, then I'd like to know what is?

There is something to be said for a scheme that is a year's community service after leaving school, which needn't be military (probably sholdn't be) but which does involve teamwork, manual labour, stuff that isn't that enjoyable, by way of teaching that shitwork has to be done which means someone has to do it and it won't kill you (things like clearing wasteland of weeds, helping out in hospitals with the cleaning and portering, picking up litter etc). If this was arrangedi n such a way that those doing it would be moving out of their family homes and living in shared accommodation with other people doing the same thing, that would also help teens to get some independence and practical skills.

But the trouble with whining that people have no respect for authority is that you miss the reason why: for too long, those in authority have had no respect for the people they claim power over, so why should they be given any deference just because they want it?

MB your husband was a star

I have tried (I think!) to be careful with my posts to avoid criticising the forces or the men and women who work inthem.

But I still don't believe they should be responsible for educating or discipling whole generations of teens. Neither do I think the structure and ethos of the forces is appropriate for the general population. For example, following orders without question is I assume pretty important in the forces, but this same trait is not desirable in citizens.

Also,
I would not want judge all workers in the forces as to their morality! I'm guessing they is a very mixed bunch of people with all sorts of motivations. But if we are debating whether an organisation should be responsible for education then we should consider their approach at least.

Schools come in various kinds. But state schools at least tend to be guided by some well-researched and debated principles in education. Obv some people choose to send their children to religious schools that tend to have a different ethos.

I would no more send my child to a religious school than a military one.

But this is a tangent. I stand by my original Nay to national service by forces, and I am uneasy about idea of complusory service even in other organisations. But haven't formulated my head yet