Anyone else feel let down by the non reduction is abortuin time limits?

[NotABanana]

I think the second scan should be at 18 weeks and abortion should only be available up to 20 weeks in extreme circumstances. No excuse for 24 weeks imho.

It was suggested to me strongly by the health professionals to terminate ds because he has an unidentified type of dwarfism. This was at 30 weeks...

In Germany the limit is 12 weeks and I can't really which I think is much better.

If not all abnormalities can be picked up at 18 weeks then there's no reason to move the date of the last scan forward.

I think if pro-life campaigners really want to reduce the amount of terminations for social reasons then what they should be campaigning for is a living wage for single mothers, a 24 hour on-call support team to help new mums in crisis, and limitless amounts of counselling/psycotherapy for women who might have otherwise reluctantly considered abortion.

If all women knew they were going to be supported and respected by society as a whole upon falling pregnant, and if the stigma of motherhood was removed i'm sure far fewer women would consider terminations. Many women find themselves between a rock and a hard place, and no-one takes that decision lightly. Making scapegoats of the women and doctors involved is not the answer.

As a scientist, the 24 week limit is required to allow the lab to safely and accurately perform a good karyotype from cells removed by amniocentesis.

Say a woman has an amnio at 17-18 weeks. Although the trisomies can be identified by FISH within 48 hours, cells need to be grown for a couple of weeks to do the more accurate test. Test result comes back, hospital needs to arrange an appt for the parents, parents need time to think about results, termination then needs to be organised etc etc.

Yes, but termination for severe abnormalities is allowed up to term. Nothing to do with the 24 week limit, which is only for social abortions.

Maybe it could just pop up automatically every five posts or so

Not let down, no.

The other thread (and ones before) has shown what a hugely emotive subject it is, and the many issues it seems to embrace as people discuss the 'rightness or wrongness'.

Research has shown that there are multiple factors as to why women undergo abortions between 20 & 24 weeks;

The majority have had delayed discovery (or acknowledgment) of the pregnancy for many reasons (irregular periods, breastfeeding, menopausal, denial)

The second delay comes as women are given time and support to consider their decision.

Further delays are then often experienced in the system.

Hence, a pregnancy at around 16 weeks may easily become an abortion at 20+ weeks.

For others, there are a change in circumstances (health of foetus included but perhaps marriage breakdown, violence or similar).

It is possible, for severe abnormalities, to abort up to term, but health professionals tend to push through before 24wks since the law is very fuzzy after that.

In answer to the OP - no, of course I don't; I feel actually enormously surprised and relieved.

'let down' is very odd wording - you think MPs had a responsibility to you to see you got what you want? what a bizarrely solipsistic worldview you have.

No, I don't feel let down at all. I am massively relieved in fact, I went to bed sick with nerves the night of the vote.

For me, it comes to down to - if you don't agree with abortion, well that's fine isn't it? Because you don't have to have one. But don't seek to remove my right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy (and if I were in a position where I needed to terminate a pregnancy, then I can assure you I'd be in a place where continuing would be disastrous for me, my existing child and the hypothetical foetus.)

Someone said something on the other thread about the difficulty of trying to imagine an unwanted pregnancy when your whole mindset revolves around wanted babies and I agree wholeheartedly. When I fell pregnant at 18, I felt like I'd been invaded by a parasite. While I knew it was a human embryo, it felt like an alien, trying to destroy me and my life from the inside (and yes I am prone to being a bit of a drama queen but seriously, it was terrible). Stark contrast to when I fell pregnant at 21, when I fell in love with my baby from the moment the line came up on the test and all I cared about from then on was him.

If I'd had that baby at 18, I dread to think what sort of mother I'd have been to it. I honestly think that Social Services would have removed it from my care because I would have been incapable. It's been hard enough bringing up a child I love and wanted, and for that reason alone I'd fight to the death for the right of any woman not to proceed with a pregnancy she doesn't want.

Didn't realise I'd waffled so much, sorry

You didn't waffle. And you were also a salutory counter to the argument - stated several times on the other thread - that you should be Racked with Guilt and Never Forgive Yourself.

Thanks MI, I get a bit riled about this and often don't express myself very well, so your comment is nice to read.

And as for those women who are racked with guilt forever more, well, they are exactly why there should be so much more counselling and support in place for women who have terminations. It is a bloody hard thing to do, even when you know the alternative will be a damn sight harder, or perhaps even impossible.

That's not a good enough reason to prevent all women from having access to terminations, imo. (For me there will never be a good enough reason to prevent women having access to safe, legal terminations)

I don't think that HP's are remotely bothered about terminations for disability after 24 weeks - certainly I know plenty of people offered them post 24 weeks for conditions far from severe (emkana's case for example).

But like fio and vivace I feel we seem to be talking amongst ourselves.

In all honesty Yurt, until this started being talked about on here over the last couple of days, I had no idea you could terminate a pregnancy up to 40 weeks in the event of fetal abnormalities - for all that I am pro-choice I must admit I was very shocked and a little horrified to discover that. That said, I still wouldn't presume to judge someone who had terminated a pregnancy at that stage, as I would imagine that someone must feel utterly desperate in order to do so. (Not that I am trying to imply you would judge such a person, obviously)

Out of interest, does anyone know why the time limit for terminating due to fetal abnormality is so late? TBH I always assumed the ordinary limit was set at 24 weeks so you could have the 20week scan and have some time to make a decision if you received bad news.

Well I suppose it's because a foetus has no legal rights until birth - and for some conditions there would perhaps be a danger carrying until term (anencephaly for example can be dangerous for the mother carried until term). Also it will be in part due to the medical model I guess where the main way of dealing with disability is to 'fix it'/get rid of it

TBH in some ways I have no problem with termination to term for conditions incompatible with life- although I think there needs to be care used when deciding which conditions are 'incompatible with life'. I do think there is something wrong with the system when post 35 week terminations are being offered for conditions such as DS. My son's disability is more severe than the majority of people I've met with DS (by some rather large distance) and his life has sufficient value that the idea of terminating babies with his condition at 35+ weeks is utterly horrific and I would say as disturbing as doing it to an NT child- in my eyes there would be absolutely no difference between terminating him at 25+ weeks or an NT child. If people see it as different then I would assume that they hold very prejudiced ideas about disability.

PLease note I am not talking about conditions incompatible with life- there you get into the realm of any 'option' being awful and only one possible outcome.

I too am hugely relieved; it's one thing this government has got right imo. I wouldn't have an abortion that late myself, but I have no right to say that no one else can.

A young boy I knew and his girlfriend had an 'accident'. Neither of them wanted a baby, or not right then - both were very bright stars, about to start Uni. The lad's parents were completely supportive of whatever decision the couple came to, but were basically in agreement with them, that it was not the right time. The problem was the girl's parents, who wanted her to have it. The poor child didn't know whether she was coming or going, neither of them did. It took a long time for her to summon up the courage to defy her parents and have the termination, and it was all the more traumatic for that. It happened at 22 weeks. I dread to think how much more hellish it would have been for her if there was a shorter time limit. By the way, they are still together (10 years later), both got firsts, both got good jobs, have 2 children. Very happy. She has few regrets.

you can terminate at 40 weeks for DS?

"I don't think that HP's are remotely bothered about terminations for disability after 24 weeks"

In my experience that isn't the case at all. Many HCPs find carrying out terminations upsetting, even those who are pro choice, and late terminations deeply traumatic.

What I meant was that doctors (who aren't necessarily carrying them out) are happy to offer them. If experiences of friends are anything to go by. ONe friend had the operating theatre booked for her (she had made it quite clear she didn't want a termination) and then was told she was selfish for keeping the baby (DS). That was a while ago, perhaps attitudes are changing.

A friend of my mums, was told they could leave their newborn baby daughter (who has DS) at the hospital if they wanted