17 year old found starved to death in Birmingham

[PinkPussyCat]

Just heard about this on the lunchtime ITV news... Apparently there were several other emaciated children found at the scene following a call to the emergency services.
They don't have any more details than that atm.

How can stuff like this be happening in the UK in 2008?

No ad-homs from me, just response.
A child starved to death, that is quite a visible thing and if more checks were made in the first 6-12 months of withdrawing or choosing not to go to school then this could not have happened.

Sooo not the SS's fault.

It's the fault of the nasty fecks who did it.

You called Julienoshoes arrogant. Which she isn't; she is, however, astoundingly patient about laying out the legal position time and again.

These children were out of the system for 10 weeks. That's just 4 weeks more than a child who goes to mainstream school.
The girl who died was seen about 10 days before her death and is reported to have looked quite normal and healthy. They were seen by a EWO in that time who also reported no problems.

Given that this timeline isn't actually that far removed from the monthly checks you are proposing, how would it actually have had any impact on this case?

This is not a failing of the education system, and it's hard, given the information we have, and that the SS acted on their first tip off, to make a decent case that this was anything other than parental deceit and neglect. For which they are now being prosecuted.

Ooh this is all very interesting.

Posyparker I think I understand what you have been getting at with regards to noone seeing children from birth until they go to school. Health visitor numbers are getting cut all of the time and they can't do as much as they used to. There are lots of vulnerable families out there, and they will not be the ones who go looking for help, if there is no child surveillance by those such as health visitors who is going to help these children who are unable to tell someone that their home life is terrible.
I hope I've got that right? and I agree.

You will never be able to stop all of these cases as people are good at hiding abuse but are we doing enough as a nation to stop child abuse? I don't think so.

There is obviously a lot going on with this particular family that we don't yet know but it is horrific that a child has died and others have clearly not been looked after as they should be.

As said lots of times, and I agree, home education is not an issue at all, but these children were obviously not been educated at home were they? They were being neglected.

KayHarker, I agree with you. However at the start of home education I think that there should be support for the parents to make sure that they are capable of doing the task they have taken on and are meeting all the needs of the child. Of course most parents wouldn't do it if they couldn't, but you also get those that don't realise how hard it is or like the children in Handsworth. If that extra bit saves a child, surely it's worth it? If checking my child was ok saved another, then how can it be a bad thing?

TinkerbellesMum, Oh, I agree, it would be fantastic if there was more support about for those just starting out. There are organizations that are great, and julienoshoes has lots of information about the support there is available right now.

But the current system honestly gives plenty of scope for it - it's just not a priority for LA when they have to prioritize the schools (and rightly so, imo).

I'm not very enthusiastic about the idea that I need my children checked so that they can check up on someone why might be abusing their children - it looks very like the ID card argument, which I'm also not in favour of. Big screaming libertarian that I am

I do understand the logic behind what you're saying, but the fact is there are procedures already in place that would do all that is being suggested.

I know a little of what goes on because Mum was an ESW in a previous life (Birmingham have ESWs rather than EWOs), she's now a CPSW both in the same authority that covers Handsworth. I'm just trying to be careful what I say so I don't get anyone in trouble.

So her little attempt of belittling me with last one blah blah turn the lights out, was fine???
Parental deceit is quite an obvious barrier when dealing with neglect and abuse, pretty scandalous if SS can't see beyond that.
Irrespective of your points if keeping a child away from school was a little more difficult perhaps the parents would not have considered this as a viable route to the disgusting neglect which lead to this child's death. Liberty should never come at the price of a child's life and until a child is 16 the state has a duty of care, we decide that they can't smoke, have sex and other matters governing welfare, why not insuring they're educated too?

as previously said, this is not about the education. The child tragically died because of the neglect of her parents, and nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that she was home educatedly (supposedly) which you still seem to be coming back to.

And why, should it be made more difficult, that is very unfair to the extremely high percentage of well-meaning home educators.

At home then, nothing to do with education... she was at home. Why not ensure children are looked after as opposed to educated. It's very difficult not to get drawn on the HE argument as other posters keep coming back to it as if anyone's attacking HE.

"The girl who died was seen about 10 days before her death and is reported to have looked quite normal and healthy. "

Can a normal healthy child REALLY starve to death in just 10 days? Surely there is more to this case?

Sorry how did the home education thing come into this ? They were taken out of school. I didn't see anywhere the fact that parent had decided to take them out of school, in order to home ed the children.
No one investigated this. = Problem
SS were to blame. = Problem

its the same thing as the shannon matthews case-her mother had lots of children by different fathers,therefore all women with kids by different fathers are scum who would sell thier own child.HE child is startved to death therefore all HE'ers take their children out of school to hide the fact they are neglecting them

if the press ever decide to report a case of a church-school educated,middle class child from a 'typical' nuclear family being abused,then that will be a problem also.

I haven't noticed at all that anyone is saying people who HE are hiding something or that their children are victim's of neglect.

"Perhaps I am not as arrogant as you to just assume I am doing a wonerful job at parenting and that everyone else must be, and appreciate the safety that the state could provide to vunerable families. "

FYI I am not arrogantly assuming any such thing.

The LA have agreed the home education I am providing is suitable and efficient for the last seven plus years.

My children tell me I am doing a damn fine job and as they have far outshone anything schools predicted for the three of them, I am reasonably sure that we have done okay by them.

I am defending -perhaps arrogantly-my right and theirs to have a private life and for it not to be given away without proof that it would save a single child's life.

If the authorities are so damn good at keeping children safe-why the hell is all of the bullying going on in schools?

I have personally dealt with more suicidal children than I care to count. Their heartbreaking story which I have heard over and over during the last seven years makes me absolutely determined to keep the avenue for these children safe from the harm that some schools can do.

After all if only one child is saved-it has to be worth it surely.

For anyone who is interested;

A new article entitled Press Release on Home Education following tragic Birmingham case has been posted on the 'Education Otherwise' Campaign website,

No, the arrogance I was referring to was assuming everyone else was doing the same, ie taking care of their children. Perhaps not so clear and again not talking about HE, to be fair I couldn't care about anything less than how someone else educates their child.

I do hope none of you were refering to my post. I was just saying that I hadn't seen any mention in any fo the papers about HE. And I didn't want this turning into yet another attack on those who choose to HE.
I meant that the children hadn't been in school for 10 weeks. No one was investigating this. And I didn't think they were not in school becasue they were being HE. I think they were simply not in school.
This should have been tackled. As should SS should have been paying more attention/following proceedures.

I have a lot of experience of home education now-and I have talked with lots of LAs Home Ed Liason Officers on this.

I say again if there is a problem-there are already powers in place for the LA to deal with it if it is a Education concern and for the Social services to deal with it if there is a welfare concern.

The DCSF was very clear on this very recently when it was discussed with them.

I don't need to give away one scrap of freedom to Big Brother-the authorities should be, quite rightly, able to do something about a parent is not taking care of their children

I totally accept that the issue of home educating seems to have little or nothing to do with this sad and so far mysterious case. BUT
Forevercleaning, how silly to compare educating children to going to the shops for something! Why not instead compare it to either taking "full responsibility" for their child's health by deciding to do their operation yourself on the kitchen table, instead of crossing their fingers and hoping the surgeon does "as good a job". Or "taking full responsibility" for teaching your own kid ballet despite your two left feet and total lack of experience, instead of 'crossing your fingers and hoping' a qualified ballet teacher might do 'as good a job'. What SOME home educators seem to believe is that people who send their children to school are just getting rid of their children out of some kind of strange malice, laziness or neglect, while actually most people with kids in school believe that entrusting their children to professional educators while giving them independence and fun experiences with their peer group is very much in their children's best interests, while home educating would not be.

Oblomov, I have read several times they were taken out of school because the mother said they were being bullied for wearing Islamic dress. There were textbooks clearly visible on the windowsills of the house, and the education officer had been to visit.

vivace - please quote me exactly where i said that people are just getting rid of their children by sending them to school.

As I explained before I personally take full responsibility of my childrens education and am very happy to do so.
Obviously some people have a problem with that!

My home educated children have independece, and fun with their peer group, which as you say is in their best interests, but it just happens to take place outside of school!

For what its worth, I am not slagging off all schools, I have one child at school at present.

What suits some children does not suit every child. That is the beauty of having the choice to Home Educate.

Forevercleaning you said:

"Posie, if one is home educating, one IS taking full personal responsibility for their education, and if one is NOT they are relying on and yes, hoping with fingers crossed that someone else will do just as good a job!"

Actually we are NOT 'hoping with fingers crossed that someone else will do just as good a job"
We, in fact, strongly believe that a professional educator with years of experience and training, often with higher level qualifications in a subject we know little about (German, Latin, science, ballet, playing the guitar) will do a BETTER job than we would.
The idea that we just know that the school will be a bit crap and we would do better but simply don't care enough, is an idea I see a fair bit from some home educators.
Do you feel that every time you take your child to see a doctor that you are not 'taking full responsibility" for their health? Because I'd say, for me, it is absolutely the opposite. Finding the right professional treatment for them IS taking 'full responsibility".

Vivace,
I'm sorry this is turning into another HE vs school thread
sigh

For what it's worth I passionately believe that parents should know about the realities all of the educational options open to them-as parents are the best people to make an infmored choice about what is right for their family at that time. For some that will be school-be that state or private and for some it will be home based education.