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WhatWouldJeevesDo · 15/04/2025 08:17

WillowTit · 15/04/2025 07:42

i tend to trust the doctors

Which doctors? A retired paediatrician or an international panel of top-notch neonatologists?

happy20218 · 15/04/2025 08:18

possibly one of the biggest miscarriages of justice we have ever seen .

Lucy Letby bombshell as new memo from sole medical witness threatens to blow prosecution's case wide open.
Lucy Letby bombshell as new memo from sole medical witness threatens to blow prosecution's case wide open.
Lucy Letby bombshell as new memo from sole medical witness threatens to blow prosecution's case wide open.
Lucy Letby bombshell as new memo from sole medical witness threatens to blow prosecution's case wide open.
AtomicBlondeRose · 15/04/2025 08:19

XelaM · 15/04/2025 07:44

Didn't ALL those babies die during her shifts? What are the chances of that just being a coincidence?

Think about all the times in your life you’ve been in a room when someone else breaks something. Now I make a table with the details of all the breakages and a list of who was present in the room. Who’s the only person who was there every time? You. So you must have broken all those things, it can’t just be a coincidence…

You see how it works?

Youcancheck · 15/04/2025 08:20

AtomicBlondeRose · 15/04/2025 08:19

Think about all the times in your life you’ve been in a room when someone else breaks something. Now I make a table with the details of all the breakages and a list of who was present in the room. Who’s the only person who was there every time? You. So you must have broken all those things, it can’t just be a coincidence…

You see how it works?

Exactly and there were many other deaths but they only investigated those that LL was on shift for so it’s a flawed investigation.

prh47bridge · 15/04/2025 08:23

XelaM · 15/04/2025 07:44

Didn't ALL those babies die during her shifts? What are the chances of that just being a coincidence?

The chart used by the prosecution to "prove" Letby's guilt suffers from both the prosecutor's fallacy and the Texas sharpshooter fallacy.

The Texas sharpshooter fallacy refers to a man with no shooting skills at all takes a gun and fires a load of shots at a barn, finds a few that are clustered together, draws a bullseye around them and says that he is a sharpshooter. In this case, incidents that took place when Letby was present were viewed as suspicious. Similar incidents that took place when Letby was absent were ignored.

The prosecutor's fallacy is to say that something is so unlikely to happen by chance that it must have involved wrongdoing. To give a ludicrous example, applying the same logic would mean that anyone who won the Euromillions must have cheated since it is so unlikely they would have won by chance this can be ruled out. This is the same logic that was used to wrongly convict Sally Clarke of murdering two of her children.

As many statisticians have said, the only thing the chart actually proved is that Letby was on duty when she was on duty. And, given that we now know that one of the doors was incorrectly labelled so staff entering the unit were recorded as exiting and vice versa, it doesn't even prove that.

This case has a lot of similarities to that of Lucia de Berk, a Dutch nurse who was convicted of murdering a number of babies and attempting to murder others. As with Letby, her conviction relied on dodgy statistics, faulty medical evidence and the contents of her diary. Her convictions were eventually overturned and it was found that the deaths were natural, sometimes as a result of incorrect treatment, bad hospital management or incorrect diagnosis.

Soontobe60 · 15/04/2025 08:26

prh47bridge · 15/04/2025 07:38

According to reports elsewhere, this was an email sent by Jayaram to other doctors when they were trying to sort out their story so that the police would be interested in the case. It isn't clear at what stage the police got hold of this email, but it should clearly have been disclosed to the defence. It wasn't. If it had been, it would, at the very least, have undermined Jayaram's evidence with respect to the baby concerned.

I don't know if Letby is innocent or guilty, but I don't think she should have been convicted on the evidence presented. Things that have emerged since conviction have strengthened my view. Unfortunately, because of the way the Court of Appeal operates, she will struggle to get her convictions overturned. Even if she is completely innocent and manages to get her convictions overturned, her life has been ruined. I doubt she will ever be able to work as a nurse again. There will always be those who believe she is guilty.

The key phrase you’ve used in your post is “according to reports elsewhere”.

myplace · 15/04/2025 08:27

@XelaM they only investigated the deaths where she was on shift. So it looks like she was there for all of them because- they only looked at cases when she was there. If a death happened and she wasn’t there… they didn’t investigate it.

It was a shit show. It has potential to be a purely accidental misinterpretation of data. It could also be that on seeing how high deaths in that ward were, the hospital preferred to blame an individual rather than the shockingly badly maintained environment and poor management.

happy20218 · 15/04/2025 08:28

@Soontobe60 this isn’t the only thing . Have a day watching the medical boards review and the other NEW evidence and come back to this thread .

Lovelysummerdays · 15/04/2025 08:35

XelaM · 15/04/2025 07:44

Didn't ALL those babies die during her shifts? What are the chances of that just being a coincidence?

Didn’t they include a baby initially realise she hadn’t had contact as wasn’t on her shifts and then remove the baby from the investigation? So the babies that died on her shifts were attributed to her and the others were natural causes. Obviously it’s hard to know the facts but it’s not impossible that she was decided on as a likely suspect and then evidence was allowed or discounted depending on whether it fit the narrative.

I’m a Micheal Mansfield fan and honestly the amount of outright lying, cover ups that has come out of institutions to cover their own arses is astounding.

RedHelenB · 15/04/2025 08:36

The one thing that doesn't add up is if the Dr's were at fault, why would they want to post to murder. That brings more scrutiny, not less

BeaAndBen · 15/04/2025 08:40

RedHelenB · 15/04/2025 08:36

The one thing that doesn't add up is if the Dr's were at fault, why would they want to post to murder. That brings more scrutiny, not less

Because that’s one person to blame, not a whole department/hospital/NHS Trust

Lovelysummerdays · 15/04/2025 08:40

RedHelenB · 15/04/2025 08:36

The one thing that doesn't add up is if the Dr's were at fault, why would they want to post to murder. That brings more scrutiny, not less

If you knew you were performing at statistically worse rates than comparable units at some point someone is going to want to know why. Best defence is a good offence perhaps?

EasternStandard · 15/04/2025 08:42

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 13/04/2025 18:09

Basically, Jayaram’s later claim to have arrived at the baby’s bedside because he didn’t trust Letby and finding her standing there not doing anything or calling for help (his claim to have caught her 'virtually red handed’ not doing anything or calling for help) is contradicted by an email he himself sent which says that the reason he was there was because she had called him.

This does seem a big deal, perjury?

WhatWouldJeevesDo · 15/04/2025 08:46

EilishMcCandlish · 15/04/2025 08:14

"At time of deterioration ... Staff nurse Letby at incubator and called Dr Jayaram to inform of low saturations."

What is missing from the ellipsis? It could state something like 'At the time of deterioration, X left Staff nurse Letby at the incubator and called Dr Jayaram to inform of low saturations.'

What’s missing from the ellipsis is that Staff Nurse Williams was absent visiting the parents.

The full text is unambiguous that Letby called Jayaram

intothefifth · 15/04/2025 09:00

It’s deeply disturbing. It isn’t just the individual case of Letby (which is awful) but the fact that once you’re convicted of murder it seems nigh on impossible to overturn it, regardless of how much evidence suggests you didn’t do it or, in this case, that murder didn’t happen at all.

WhatWouldJeevesDo · 15/04/2025 09:04

RedHelenB · 15/04/2025 08:36

The one thing that doesn't add up is if the Dr's were at fault, why would they want to post to murder. That brings more scrutiny, not less

I believe they were trying to claim whistle blower protection. At least some of them were at high risk of being reported to the GMC for their bullying of Letby. If they could demonstrate genuine concern that would put them in a better position.

prh47bridge · 15/04/2025 09:06

Soontobe60 · 15/04/2025 08:26

The key phrase you’ve used in your post is “according to reports elsewhere”.

Not sure in what way you think that is key. Do you want me to list those press reports that have said this? And regardless of the reason this was written, it should have been disclosed to the defence. It clearly has potential to undermine Jayaram's evidence. Focus on that rather than grasping at straws.

FairlyTired · 15/04/2025 09:08

Or, did the doctor lie about being called to cover for what he at the time thought was a one off mess up where she'd excused it as waiting to see if he recovered from the desat alone. I can see a collegue covering for what they thought was a one off misjudgement that the person is sorry for.

Enoughisenough689 · 15/04/2025 09:09

RedHelenB · 15/04/2025 08:36

The one thing that doesn't add up is if the Dr's were at fault, why would they want to post to murder. That brings more scrutiny, not less

When so many babies sadly pass away, there is scrutiny anyway, although obviously not enough on this ward by the sound of things.

LizzieSiddal · 15/04/2025 09:10

BeaAndBen · 15/04/2025 08:40

Because that’s one person to blame, not a whole department/hospital/NHS Trust

But the bosses didn’t want an investigation, they were trying to brush the whole thing under the carpet. It was the Drs who kept going back to the bosses to say these babies deaths were unusual.
Why would the Drs do that if by keeping quiet, nothing would ever have been investigated?

AnnaQuayInTheUk · 15/04/2025 09:13

XelaM · 15/04/2025 07:44

Didn't ALL those babies die during her shifts? What are the chances of that just being a coincidence?

Yes.
But there were other babies who died when she wasn't on shift, but their deaths weren't included in the inquiry.

Neodymium · 15/04/2025 09:13

intothefifth · 15/04/2025 09:00

It’s deeply disturbing. It isn’t just the individual case of Letby (which is awful) but the fact that once you’re convicted of murder it seems nigh on impossible to overturn it, regardless of how much evidence suggests you didn’t do it or, in this case, that murder didn’t happen at all.

Is your system in the uk oddly rigid? Seems like in Australia appeals happen all the time, and for very trivial things. Can also appeal the sentence. And can appeal to multiple levels of court all the way to the high court if it gets knocked back at other levels. It doesn’t seem like it’s hard to get an appeal here compared to over there.

I am quite ignorant of the legal system I have to say but I say this as someone who reads the news and reads about lots of people appealing to different courts.

FeministUnderTheCatriarchy · 15/04/2025 09:14

You have to wonder how high up it goes and whether there was pressure on the doctors to go along with Letby being the scapegoat.

Either way, going along with ruining someone's life is disgusting and deserves punishment, but these workplaces can be extremely pressurised and toxic.

If she is found to be innocent (which I am starting to believe she is) I hope she receives some sort of help to start a new life with a new identity.

She probably won't get that help... But her life has been ruined and if she is innocent, that is tragic.

Considering this situation has happened before, there needs to be a complete overhaul of how these situations are handled.

Lovelysummerdays · 15/04/2025 09:17

LizzieSiddal · 15/04/2025 09:10

But the bosses didn’t want an investigation, they were trying to brush the whole thing under the carpet. It was the Drs who kept going back to the bosses to say these babies deaths were unusual.
Why would the Drs do that if by keeping quiet, nothing would ever have been investigated?

Surely at some point fingers of blame would have been pointed at the doctors in charge. Is these deaths are unusual aka this is not my fault?

Hospital cover ups are worryingly common just recently there was another poor family in the papers as their baby died, where the internal investigation praised the staff and found them blameless or faultless. Subsequent external investigation found multiple failures and that baby could of survived had the recommended standard of care been followed.

Lovelysummerdays · 15/04/2025 09:25

Neodymium · 15/04/2025 09:13

Is your system in the uk oddly rigid? Seems like in Australia appeals happen all the time, and for very trivial things. Can also appeal the sentence. And can appeal to multiple levels of court all the way to the high court if it gets knocked back at other levels. It doesn’t seem like it’s hard to get an appeal here compared to over there.

I am quite ignorant of the legal system I have to say but I say this as someone who reads the news and reads about lots of people appealing to different courts.

I think there needs to be new evidence that wasn’t available at the time of the first trial. The experts coming out in favour of Let-by existed at the time it was up to her defence to challenge expert witness so not necessarily grounds for an appeal. However if the prosecution knew about these emails then I believe they are duty bound to pass exculpatory evidence along to the defence. Failure to do so could be grounds for an appeal if it could of made a material difference at the time of trial.