Scarlett Vickers - Were we actually meant to believe this was an accident

[theressomanytinafeysicouldbe]

How can anyone believe this was an accident and surely the mother could not have been stood in the kitchen with her back turned and not heard her daughter get stabbed. Surely she should have been tried too?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly9zx02rejo

I don’t envy the jury in cases like these, not only are you having to listen to horrific evidence but you also have to balance what you think happened with what the prosecution have proven beyond reasonable doubt. You could believe someone was guilty but not believe that the standard of proof for conviction had been met.

Cases like this give me faith in the system. As a layperson I’m on the fence on whether a knife thrown at someone could cause death in this manner. It’s brilliant that experts in the industry were able to disprove his version of events and say with certainty that the knife would have rebounded or would need to have been x distance/y degrees to cause such an injury. That precision is pretty cool.

Yes. That interview with Avril at their home by a reporter, the light and life had totally gone.behind the eyes. Whatever moral compass she had had was smashed by that horrible man. Poor Margaret, she deserved far better than life with those two. Not sure we will ever know what happened in the end. .

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m000d2cy/murder-trial

Not to the same extent obviously, but mum's husband just died, after subjecting her to a 30 year coercive controlling relationship. These women sometimes get dragged in the undertow of these vile characters.

Not excusing covering up a murder though, there's no excuse for that.

I wouldn't have a single doubt about that. It would bounce straight back off a bone, not through or under it

I think it's very telling that he'd been watching football and been drinking.
I'd put money on it being an unreported DV situation and she's either tried to protect the mum/stand up to the dad or he's killed her to punish the mum.
I'd be very surprised if it was an accident.
It's beyond appalling that anyone would do this to their child. And I'm not just talking about the father.

I mean ultimately if someone threw a knife at me, I’d instinctively try and move to avoid it. In my mind I wouldn’t think it’s going to bounce straight back off because I would be worried about injury including death.

An article in The Times was updated several times, I'm sure it said she had called him "wimpy" as something like a grape had hit him, but then when I looked back I didn't see that part again.
I think he was drunk and his ego couldn't take a joke.
Time and again male ego appears extremely fragile and testosterone causes extreme sudden behaviours. Absolutely his fault and he has to live with it.
Just wish she had survived!

@MJconfessions exactly or you would put your arm up or move... so it wouldn't hit and penetrate where it did without force

Sure but that’s reliant on me being aware that a knife is heading in my direction, then me also having the ability to move without anything preventing escape including obstruction or ill health.

My point being, if a knife was thrown at me I would be worried about injury as most people would. I wouldn’t assume that this sort of injury would be impossible.

My hunch is that it was an argument between a teenage girl and her dad about her conduct and it spiralled. I think mum might share common values around whatever issue they had or at least think the dad gets to set the rules/standards and that's why she's standing by him.

Yeah, me too.

@kellysjowls Does that mean the judge had the final decision?

No, that's not how jury trials work in England and Wales. A judge doesn't decide on the "facts" (the guilt or otherwise) of the defendant(s), that's the jury's job. A judge decides on the law which includes passing sentence if the jury finds the defendant(s) guilty. They also direct the jury on matters of law and procedure.

Sometimes a judge will accept a majority verdict if the jury is having difficulty reaching a unanimous one. This is presumably what happened here.

women often stand by their 'man' - see all those rapists of Gisele in France, apparently many of them had supportive wives and girlfriends in court, standing by their rapist partners. Happens again and again and again.
I feel very privileged that I can't even imagine feeling that insecure about my own abilities to survive on my own, that I would need to hitch my wagon to men like this murderer or the countless other men who abuse women in their own homes.

I will never forget the mother of Teddie, her little baby boy murdered by her violent boyfriend. It was on 24 Hours in Police Custody.

The boyfriend had been abusing her and her children for months, but she defended him to the point of rage. Neighbours offered help, she threatened them. When police arrived because neighbours reported screaming, she was furious with them, called the neighbours vicious liars and even when interviewed completely separately from him by very sympathetic officers she kept up the line that 'all couples argue'.

The most heartbreaking part was after Teddies death in hospital from his injuries, she was talked through the medical findings as to exactly how he had died. She showed no emotion at all, just flicking her hair and huffing and puffing. Then, they told her that DNA had proved that her abusive boyfriend was not Teddies father, and she got angry and upset on his behalf.

You might wonder, was this guy incredibly charismatic to make her prize him so much, he was utterly repellent, ugly and barely coherent.

Oh god it was awful. That poor little boy. Failed by his own mum. I hope her other children are safe and loved by someone kind.

I remember this one well. He gave a very dramatic performance in the hospital prior to his arrest didn’t he. And she was absolutely outraged on his behalf that he was being accused of causing those injuries. I think it was one of the other children who provided pretty damning evidence against him in the end because she was no help.

I'm fascinated with the psychology of why such women would side with their abusive partner over their own child. It's unfathomable to me and I'm sure most people, yet it seems to happen again and again, and these are only the ones bad enough to end up in the news.

There's a long thread running about a poster who got bad vibes over this guy she had met online and so she contacted the police and asked to run a Clare's Law on him.

Turns out, yes he's had several run ins with the police involving his violence/abuse of several female partners.

OP has decided that because he wasn't taken to court & convicted and therefore hadn't got a police record (just arrested etc) and also that he's told her that his ex's were crazy and it was all their fault, that he's still dateable. He then (within a week of her finding out about his behaviour towards his former partners) gone on to do something most people would consider a red flag and used physical control against her.
Still she's very keen (more keen) to carry on dating him because he treats her nicely and MNs have been so horrible to her pointing out that he's clearly a risky person to be around and because op is obviously vulnerable.

I'm not sure if the thread is real, because it's such a masterclass in the poor woman's cognitive dissonance that this random man she's met, who has by evidenced by the police clearly been a nightmare to the women's he's been in a relationship with previously, is a better bet than just being single for a while and seeking a man who doesn't make her feel she should do a police search on.

She has a small child too.
Honestly it sends shivers down my spine.
But I think some women are just so unable to see what the rest of us can when they have a manipulative dangerous man in their bed.

I'm not blaming her, I'm just gutted for her and her child.
It's just such a reminder that not everyone is able to keep themselves safe by being able to walk away, even though they know the man is dangerous.
So many women stand by horrific men, even though you would think it was the easiest it's ever been to get free of them.

Sentencing due today when maybe more will come out.

I found the 'play fighting' of a dad with his 14YO creepy. That's not on, is it?

He got 15 years. Paltry

I sort of shrugged along until I got to the bit where she has a small child.

Honestly, if you bring a child into the world - put it before some lousy just met man. To me it is just irresponsible to put yourself at risk as a parent, and to put your child at risk is unforgivable. Obviously, she doesn't see it that way. I feel like shaking these women and saying wake the fuck up before its too late.